Moral Dilemma

[Eric J.]

Okay, I don't know if this is Forge appropriate but here goes...

I have a little brother (9), quite brite actually, with a very creative mind.  Recently I was whisked away to California to live with my dad because of forces far beyond my control but he was left behind.  Now, since then he has discovered a 3rd ed. Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying book.  Well guess what?  He's read the hell out of it.  So here is the problem.

My mom wants me to put the idea of him ACTUALLY PLAYING out of his mind (or die trying as the case would happen).  Her reasoning is that he's too young and that he doesn't have the discipline to deal with it or something.

My dad is fine with it.

My little brother (which shall, henceforth, be reffered to as 'Ryan') will IM me readilly and ask me to play with him.  Here's an actual conversation (I got his permission to post it).:

lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
Will R.P.G. me right now?
Krono says:
No...
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
Please  
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
 :D
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
:D
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
:D
Krono says:
Smileys don't do anything to persuade me.
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
:D :D :D
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
Please PLease PLease?
Krono says:
No No No?
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
:D
lawyer4u3000@hotmail.com says:
Do it or I will spam you

He lives with our mom right now (who I'm not exactly on friendly terms with).  

So what would you advise?  I'm probably going to try to advocate Ryan's side, but it's kindof hard for me to choose.  What have your experiences been?  Mine have all been positive as mentioned in several older threads (which I'm probably not going to find).

May the wind be always at your back,
-Pyron

[clehrich]

Surely the question here is your mother, not your brother.  You might talk to her about (for example) the currently running thread, started by lumpley, about children playing RPG's.  Unquestionably, some adult guidance would be helpful, if only for organizational purposes, but can't Ryan find some sort of group through school?

I'd try to find out exactly what your mother's objection is, and try to meet that rationally and directly.  If you want your brother playing, for whatever reason, you might try contacting his school's after-school programs people and see what they've got.  There may be a teacher who runs an RPG group, for example, or a Scoutmaster or something.  It may well be that your mother is more concerned about him spending all his time typing on a computer to his distant brother rather than making friends his own age at home, in which case a group like this would presumably resolve the problem somewhat.  Based on the IM exchange, I'm guessing there may be some truth in that last concern, though.

Chris Lehrich

[John Kim]

My mom wants me to put the idea of him ACTUALLY PLAYING out of his mind (or die trying as the case would happen).  Her reasoning is that he's too young and that he doesn't have the discipline to deal with it or something.  

Would you like ammunition to convince her?  I have a collection of psychological study summaries on my site, along with other introductory stuff.  

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/whatis/

[Eric J.]

That would be perfect yes!

Well, it's not that I would be playing with him over IM.  She wants me to discourage him from geting involved with roleplaying altogether.  I would be playing with him when I came back home this summer.

I felt, from the beginning, that this may not be the most appropriate place to bring up these things, but I guessed that the worst thing I could get wouldn't be that bad.  It's kindof important to me and you guys would know more about roleplaying with children than I would.

The problem is, I guess, that this topic gets into a bunch of personal issues that would be inappropriate for these forums.  I guess I'll just stick to asking what your opinions are on 9 year olds with overactive immaginations and roleplaying (we all were once, right?).  I'm thinking of confronting my mom but that doesn't always turn out well... She's kindof uh... yeah.  So it is both a roleplaying issue and a personal issue at the same time.  Maybe we could just deal with the latter or something.

I have more faith in The Forge than in other online community, so here I came.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Pyron

[Tomas HVM]

I have a little brother (9),

My mom wants me to put the idea of him ACTUALLY PLAYING out of his mind (or die trying as the case would happen).  Her reasoning is that he's too young and that he doesn't have the discipline to deal with it or something.

I've played fantasy RPG professionally (that's 4-6 groups each week, all year), with children ranging from the age of 5 to the age of 16 since 1996. I have especially good experience with those between 9 and 12, those being the brunt of my players. The last couple of years I've also administered several other GMs, playing with groups of children, and I've had no complaints on any of them.

I have experienced a small problem with this once, and only once (a mother told me her ten year old daughter found the game a bit scary. Not scary enough to stop playing though. I made the game a little less scary, and she never mentioned it again. Two years later the girl is still playing. And the mother is as positive as other parents about it).

I get lots of reports from parents, and children, all the time. The parents say things like this; "This is so important for my son/daughter" and "We get these fantastic reports from your sessions" and "This does marvellous things to my son/daughter" and "They play alot themselves too, and make their own games all the time". When I make my rounds, by phone, to the parents about payments, I always get such messages.

It is a common experience amongst parents that their children is better off for playing RPGs with an adult GM once a week (not to say they don't play amongst themselves too). It has a positive effect on their social skills, is great training of creative powers, and even strenghten the school performance for some.

So I vouch for the normal fantasy RPG to be totally safe, and very sound, for a boy at the age of nine.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

None of this thread, including this post, should be considered anything but personal opinion. We're not therapists, counselors, or legal advisors, and unfortunately some of this topic concerns issues for all three. Even if some of us do have those roles professionally, the Forge isn't a venue for applying them.

That said, here's my call. Eric, fundamentally, you can't fight with your mom over this. Nor can you become her secret agent regarding your brother. Basically? Your only option is to step aside and neither help nor hinder your brother's interest in role-playing.

Please consider that none of this has anything to do with role-playing per se. You are dealing with a power struggle among people, and you're caught in the middle. The question is whether you choose to become a fellow fighter in the struggle (which, fundamentally, is over nothing, just another crumb of you-can or you-can't) or to step away from it.

Best,
Ron

[jdagna]

Boy does a lot of this sound familiar... I started role-playing at 10, and my dad almost instantly hated it.  He forbid me to play by the time I reached Jr High, but I never really stopped.

In your situation, Eric, I'd do two things.

First, tell your brother that you won't play with him, nor will you help him play, as long as he's living with his mother and under her supervision.  It's just not a good thing to get caught in what is basically a power struggle, and in a situation like this, there really isn't any argument that says "It's beneficial to encourage a child resist their parents."

Second, I would discuss the issue with your mother.  Point her to the kinds of studies and articles that can be found all over the place.  You know your mother best, but I'd recommend the more scientific and unbiased ones.  (My father would have seen Tomas' anecdotes as evidence of Satanic control over the children, but there never was any reasoning with him).  Don't make your discussions arguments.  Say "Here's some information about roleplaying" instead of "Here's why you should let Ryan play RPGs"  If you make it into an argument, she's going to say no regardless of your evidence.  

It may already be too late.  You have to be willing to accept the fact that she's in a position to refuse anything you offer.  Don't push the issue long enough to make it a wedge between you.  After all, a wedge between you and her is going to manifest as a wedge betewen you and your brother as long as you're both under different custody (I know this from experience).  The relationships are more valuable than the things.

[Christopher Weeks]

Eric,

I started when I was nine, with my parents.  I think that in many ways the only thing to have affected my life as dramatically is the introduction of computers into our house at around the same age (this is 1979, we were early adopters).  I'm now 33, have two kids of my own (one who is nine!) and have two degrees from university in education.  If your mother wanted to ask questions of someone who's been on both sides of the issue, I'd volunteer.

But I'll state up front that my bias is as heavily pro-gaming as anyone's could be.  Role-playing games are certainly far more important to my education than the sum of my K-12 schooling, and possibly saved my life (metaphorically, if not literally).

Chris

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

After some thought, I have decided to close this thread.

My "it's policy, sir" reason is because it doesn't deal with actual play.

My real reason is because, quite frankly, every response we provide brings us, specifically Clinton and me, closer to legal prosecution.

I'm serious. We simply cannot enter into any aspect of a custody and parent/child situation in terms of advice.

Eric, I apologize for this, and I'm sure someone will be happy to take it up with you by private email if they'd like, but it can't be a Forge thing.

Best,
Ron