The Role of Fantasy Races in FRPGs

[Valamir]

Walt, well freaking said.

[Argetlamh]

First of all, welcome to the Forge, Argetlamh!!   The local http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=1604">etiquette is to sign with your first name, by the way, though that is a request rather than a requirement.

Of course. Idiot. My name is Dan. I quite unthinking chose the moniker simply because it is the same handle I use on RPGnet. I just hope I can make myself useful around here.  

-Dan Vince

[John Kim]

I'm also frankly using them as protective camoflage. With a fantasy race, I can paint in broad strokes, using sterotype as inspiration to define racial, cultural, and societal factors. I can use them to parody reality without (hopefully) being as offensive as I would trying to recreate actual cultures. It is rather difficult to define a culture or society without either using stereotype, or writing a much longer book than I intend to. If I were to try and represent human cultures using sterotype, then I know very well I would be accused of racism.  There isn't a doubt in my mind. I could write up my own culture and I'd be called a racist.

OK, here's the key.  You define this as "protective camouflage" -- but I think at least a significant fraction of people here don't consider this to be the blanket protection you claim.  i.e. They see having dumb, evil orcs as being no different in principle than having dumb, evil whites or dumb, evil asians.  None of these three are a priori bad -- but they all raise issues of race and make statements about race.  The issue is, what statement are they making?  In my opinion, that isn't deterministic from simple facts like skin color of the dumb, evil race.  

I see a lot of frustration with this concept.  You would like to have a simple approach -- requiring little effort or rethinking -- such that then you are "safe" from accusations of racism, so you can get on with your game.  Unfortunately, I can't offer that.  Regardless of whether your race has black skin, or pointed ears, or pig noses -- your approach, as you yourself defined it, is stereotypes based on race.  This inherently has a message about real-world racial issues.  What that message is depends on how you handle the material.  

There is no simple formula for message.  For example, take the website http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/">Black People Love Us.  I consider it ingenious and informative about race.  But there are people who complain about it simply being racist.  Conversely, I can easily imagine a very similar website which really is racist and horrible.  People will have different opinions, and their opinions will be based on different

I strongly expect, in the tense politically correct climate existing these days, that I may be accused anyway, but at least I'll have a defense. Sadly intent is not an adequate defense for such accusations, as it seems that a person can be labeled a racist in the eyes of the beholder regardless of any personal racist tendencies.  

Well, if we had perfect telepathy and could see everything in people's minds, then I'm sure that intent would be an adequate defense.  However, in the real world, pretty much everyone claims to not be racist these days -- even if they display behaviors which others could clearly categorize as racist.  So no, I don't accept that simply typing in the words "I'm not a racist" means that there is no racism in that person's work, even if he genuinely believes that he isn't racist.  

Ultimately, I would say don't worry about what some random person would say about your game.  However, you should think at least a bit about the issue for yourself.  What do you think about race, and what do you think your game says about race?  Do you think that substituting in real-world races for fantasy races would change the message of your game?  If so, why?

[komradebob]

My 2 cents:

Do straight, working class, white boys ( like myself) actually benefit from defending the ugly "isms" of the world? Seriously. I don't see where I've ever gotten ahead by any of them existing. Rich white boys, sure; the people with their hands on the levers of power, get hell loads of benefits. Blue collar guys get nothing but misery from one side and empty, bullshit promises and the privilege to be used as thugs and catspaws from the other.  

I'd like to see some design that takes that into account.

Ironically, the people who jump into these debates on the "non-oppressed" side are generally those people that might actually question whether they really do agree with the premises behind the "ism" in question. Inevitably, they end up with a sort of "seige mentality" from which it is imfamously hard to extricate themselves.

The folks that actually do benefit from realworld racism/sexism/etc. must laugh like hell to see people who probably would thrive as allies tearing each other apart.

Robert

[madelf]

OK, here's the key.  You define this as "protective camouflage" -- but I think at least a significant fraction of people here don't consider this to be the blanket protection you claim.  i.e. They see having dumb, evil orcs as being no different in principle than having dumb, evil whites or dumb, evil asians.  None of these three are a priori bad -- but they all raise issues of race and make statements about race.  The issue is, what statement are they making?  In my opinion, that isn't deterministic from simple facts like skin color of the dumb, evil race.

Just keep in mind, you're talking about a dumb, evil race.
I tend more to the concept of dumb, evil people regardless of race. And of course, who is dumb and evil is often a question of which side you're on. I prefer to play with the gray areas more than the blacks and whites. In my writings, the bad guy is usually quite certain he's the good guy. I figure there are very few people who embrace evil for evil's sake. Certainly not whole societies. But evil acts have been commited on that level in our world, why not in a fictional one.
But good and evil are not the issues I'm talking about regarding fantasy races.

With that out of the way, count me among the people who don't consider my camouflage to be blanket protection. I've got fantasy races in my game that are far more derivitive of real world stereotypes than they are of traditional fantasy races. I intend to acknowledge this fact, in writing, in the book. I am confortably certain that someone somewhere is going to be offended and call me a racist. I'm okay with that really. It's happened before, it probably will again.
What I'm hoping to do by the protective camouflage (probably not the best term for it, but accurate enough for now) is have something to point to and say to these people "Look folks, this is inspired by a stereotype of a culture or race. It is not the race, a representation of the race, or a reflection on the race. It is simply a plot device, a basis for creating a fictional group of beings. So get a life."

To clarify, I'll give an example. (and one that's from a part of my own, mixed, ancestry) There's a race in my setting that is based on a stereotype of the Irish people. They're a basically good-natured and friendly folk, tending toward red hair and short stature, with hot tempers, and a love of fighting. They also have a tendency to partake of more alcoholic beverages than is probably good for them. They are violently divided over religious issues and are engaged in a covert war against the larger nation who governs them. These are my halflings. Although these halflings are indeed based on a very small and narrow stereotype of the Irish, they are not the Irish. I could not in good conscience claim that they are Irish, because they do not reflect the whole of the diverse culture of Ireland, and the Irish people.
I am comfortable with arguing that I am not racist in my depiction of halflings. If I was using this stereotype to actually portray the real people of Ireland, I would not be at all comfortable with making that same claim.

I see a lot of frustration with this concept.  You would like to have a simple approach -- requiring little effort or rethinking -- such that then you are "safe" from accusations of racism, so you can get on with your game.  Unfortunately, I can't offer that.  Regardless of whether your race has black skin, or pointed ears, or pig noses -- your approach, as you yourself defined it, is stereotypes based on race.  This inherently has a message about real-world racial issues.  What that message is depends on how you handle the material.

It's not about a simple approach, it's about being realistic. I maintain that it is impossible to define a culture within the limited scope of a game book, in any manner other than as a stereotype. Any "purely fictional" culture is going to be influenced by the writer's understanding of real world culture whether intentional or not. It can't be helped, it's the only world we know. I'm just facing that fact with complete honesty and accepting that my fictional world is a parody of our own.
But the important thing to remember is that it is a work of fiction. It's not the real world. There's no deep meaningful statement about our times, or any other. It is what it is. In my world, the humans of the Empire of Hanor look down on the Halflings they rule, considering them a lower class than themselves. That's what the Hanorans do to the Halflings. Now, as it happens, that's actually pretty close to the way England historically looked at Ireland. But if someone looks at my game and sees it as an endorsement of that attitude in the real world...then they're the ones with the problem.
I know what I'm saying, and I'm not making any meaningful statement about real world racial issues (except perhaps that they exist and would be a part of any world with diverse cultures, real or fictional). If someone wants to deal with that issue, look around at the real world. Don't look in my book. My book deals with fictional people and fictional relationships between them.
If people want to read something else into it, then there's very little I can do about it.
 

So no, I don't accept that simply typing in the words "I'm not a racist" means that there is no racism in that person's work, even if he genuinely believes that he isn't racist.  

I believe that it does mean exactly that. Another person cannot determine whether or not I am racist. My own, personal feelings in regards to people of other races is the only valid measurement of my racism.
This is why I really don't like the concept of "politically correct". It puts too much weight on people to understand what others want and feel. I can't know what innocent action or comment may upset someone who's culture I am unfamiliar with. I don't feel I'm old, but even appropriate terminology for refering to specific races or cultures has changed in my lifetime. Drastically. Terms that were supposedly the preference when I was growing up are now insults. And I'm expected to keep up with all that.
No. Intent should be the defining issue of racism. If I intend to racially demean or insult you by something I do or say, then I am a racist. If I do not intend to do such a thing then I am not a racist.
If I accept everyone on an equal basis in my own heart and mind, and judge everyone on the basis of that person as an individual, then I am not a racist regardless of how many people are inadvertently offended by my actions or words, and regardless of how many people try and accuse me of being a racist.
You cannot make a person a racist by believing that they are one.

Ultimately, I would say don't worry about what some random person would say about your game.  However, you should think at least a bit about the issue for yourself.  What do you think about race, and what do you think your game says about race?  Do you think that substituting in real-world races for fantasy races would change the message of your game?  If so, why?

What I think about race?
I think it is over-rated. It's a collection of physical traits dependent on region of ancestral origin. Certainly there are physical differences between races. The differences are minimal, but they are there. Skin color, average height & build, hair and eye color...can all be affected by race. Lots of different races mean there are lots of different people, simple as that. If all race was used for is a descriptive reference, wouldn't that be nice? But people being what they are have to make it more than it is. They get proud of it, and defensive about it, and start fights over it. It's almost as bad as religion.
If my game says anything at all about race, I hope that's the message. That there are all kinds of people. Some short, some tall, some with pointed ears...in the end, they're all people. Even if not everyone realizes it yet.

Would the message change if I used real-world races? No.
But I'd bet money that the perceived message probably would. If only because people would be less likely to think of it as a fictional game setting and try to overthink what it's trying to say.

[John Kim]

What I'm hoping to do by the protective camouflage (probably not the best term for it, but accurate enough for now) is have something to point to and say to these people "Look folks, this is inspired by a stereotype of a culture or race. It is not the race, a representation of the race, or a reflection on the race. It is simply a plot device, a basis for creating a fictional group of beings. So get a life."

To clarify, I'll give an example. (and one that's from a part of my own, mixed, ancestry) There's a race in my setting that is based on a stereotype of the Irish people....

I would consider this a silly reason.  If you think that it makes a difference for yourself, then you should change it.  But I wouldn't design for those hypothetical people -- and anyhow chances are they aren't going to be swayed by this sort of name change.  i.e. Making the race in your game short and call them "halflings" instead of "Irish" doesn't change anything, to my mind at least.  It is still fiction, regardless of what name you use for it.  Unless you are claiming that it is an accurate portrayal, I understand it to be allegory rather than attempt at fact.  

I see a lot of frustration with this concept.  You would like to have a simple approach -- requiring little effort or rethinking -- such that then you are "safe" from accusations of racism, so you can get on with your game.  Unfortunately, I can't offer that.  Regardless of whether your race has black skin, or pointed ears, or pig noses -- your approach, as you yourself defined it, is stereotypes based on race.  This inherently has a message about real-world racial issues.  What that message is depends on how you handle the material.

It's not about a simple approach, it's about being realistic. I maintain that it is impossible to define a culture within the limited scope of a game book, in any manner other than as a stereotype. Any "purely fictional" culture is going to be influenced by the writer's understanding of real world culture whether intentional or not. It can't be helped, it's the only world we know. I'm just facing that fact with complete honesty and accepting that my fictional world is a parody of our own.
But the important thing to remember is that it is a work of fiction. It's not the real world. There's no deep meaningful statement about our times, or any other.

Well, I agree that regardless of whether it is "fictional" or not, long or short, a work will be influenced by stereotypes.  The question is what you do with those stereotypes.  As for your latter statement, I'm not sure I follow.  Are you saying that fiction by definition cannot have deep meaningful statements, because it isn't real???  If so I completely disagree.  Fiction does have meaning -- just that it's meaning is in theme and allegory and metaphor, rather than presentation of facts.  What I am saying is that a token change of the name or color of a race does little to change the allegory.  

What I think about race?
I think it is over-rated. It's a collection of physical traits dependent on region of ancestral origin. Certainly there are physical differences between races. The differences are minimal, but they are there. Skin color, average height & build, hair and eye color...can all be affected by race. Lots of different races mean there are lots of different people, simple as that. If all race was used for is a descriptive reference, wouldn't that be nice? But people being what they are have to make it more than it is. They get proud of it, and defensive about it, and start fights over it. It's almost as bad as religion.
If my game says anything at all about race, I hope that's the message.  

OK, here we start to get down to brass tacks.  You would like to convey this message.  Do you think your approach of taking real-world racial stereotypes as the basis for fantasy races helps convey this message?  I'm having a little trouble connecting the approach you describe and the message you would like to convey.  Do you really want it to be a parody, to show how silly racial stereotypes are?  If so, doesn't the "protective camouflage" weaken the force of the point?

[contracycle]

Note that if one buys into these arguments, the only possible non-racist fantasy RPG play is play that explicitly focuses on issues of race.

Oh come on, thats just plain ridiculous.  The simple mechanical fact of inserting race does not inherently make it racist - there is some inspecting of tone and context to be done first, you know.

[contracycle]

There's a race in my setting that is based on a stereotype of the Irish people.

...

They're a basically good-natured and friendly folk, tending toward red hair and short stature, with hot tempers, and a love of fighting.

...

I am comfortable with arguing that I am not racist in my depiction of halflings. If I was using this stereotype to actually portray the real people of Ireland, I would not be at all comfortable with making that same claim.

But you are clearly expecting your audience to get the comparison, to realise the stereotype.  Its a stereotype, which you know and openly admit.  you are consciously reproducingh that stereiotype, thus perpetuating it in the material culture we inhabit.  So I'm afraid you don't have a leg to stand on, really,

Now we get to the slighlty more interesting apologetics:

It's not about a simple approach, it's about being realistic. I maintain that it is impossible to define a culture within the limited scope of a game book, in any manner other than as a stereotype.

Well then, why do it at all?  If you freely admit that you cannot acheive a real cultural description, and that to fit it in you have to botch the job, then why use them at all?  Why not just (horror!) use humans and skip the whole problem of trying to define multiple cultures, concentrating more finely?  It is your decision to introduce this idea, this trope, of the direct relationship between descent and personality characteristics or modes of behaviour.  You are going out of your way to draw this distinction through a particular dramatic device.  And, as an artist is always responsible for their own weak, appeals to ignorance or innocence are pretty much futile.

There is no particular reason you HAVE to have fantasy races.  Thus you CHOSE to have them, and anything your work says or implies about them is your cross to bear.  If the audience does not like what it sees, that is your problem, not theirs.

Any "purely fictional" culture is going to be influenced by the writer's understanding of real world culture whether intentional or not.

Indeed so.  But then again, your work is not "purely fictional" if it is consiously reproducing a hostile stereotype of the Irish, and relies on the audiences familiarity with that stereotype.  Why not go all the way and call 'em bog-trotters?  This is NOT a wholly fictional construction at all, and so to appeal to artistic license is invalid.

If people want to read something else into it, then there's very little I can do about it.

Nope, it would seem to me that I'm criticising exactly what you consciously set out to produce, and are subsequently defending.
 

Another person cannot determine whether or not I am racist. My own, personal feelings in regards to people of other races is the only valid measurement of my racism.

Nope, your "feelings" are unmeasurable, the only MEASURABLE thing is your behaviour.  Whic is exactly why appeals to wehat your intent was when you did X or Y are at best of very low value and at worst counterproductive.  At best, your self-declared intent probably cannot be conveyed to the bulk of your buyers, who will draw their own concousions from the actual product that ships.

This is why I really don't like the concept of "politically correct".

The old straw man rides again...

No. Intent should be the defining issue of racism. If I intend to racially demean or insult you by something I do or say, then I am a racist. If I do not intend to do such a thing then I am not a racist.

Bollocks, I'm afraid.  Because equally, people can quite firmly believe that people are inherently different, of different degrees of perfection, and should live separately and not inter-marry, WITHOUT that implying that they also hate and violate.  It's just rare.  But your self-diagnosed intent is basically valueless special pleading.

You cannot make a person a racist by believing that they are one.

And you cannot excuse racism by failing to recognise it, if that is what it is.

If my game says anything at all about race, I hope that's the message. That there are all kinds of people. Some short, some tall, some with pointed ears...in the end, they're all people. Even if not everyone realizes it yet.

Ah, but we also know that if the person is hort and red-headed, they'll be up for a fight and a whiskey afterward, don't we?

[madelf]

Unless you are claiming that it is an accurate portrayal, I understand it to be allegory rather than attempt at fact.

Unfortunately I don't assume that everyone will be so discerning. I believe the fantasy race "filter" may serve the purpose of slapping the denser reader in the face with the fact that this is not real

Are you saying that fiction by definition cannot have deep meaningful statements, because it isn't real??? If so I completely disagree. Fiction does have meaning -- just that it's meaning is in theme and allegory and metaphor, rather than presentation of facts. What I am saying is that a token change of the name or color of a race does little to change the allegory.

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that fiction doesn't have to be deeply meaningful simply by it's existence. I suppose it could be argued that if I bother to write it, then it means something, but I strongly disagree that simply because different races exist in my writing that is any indication it is written as a meaningful statement about races or relationships between races. If my meaning is that there simply are different races who have different understandings of themselves and each other, then that's all it means. People may add their own interpretations and theories if they wish, but that has very little to do with my meaning, or lack of the same.

OK, here we start to get down to brass tacks. You would like to convey this message. Do you think your approach of taking real-world racial stereotypes as the basis for fantasy races helps convey this message? I'm having a little trouble connecting the approach you describe and the message you would like to convey. Do you really want it to be a parody, to show how silly racial stereotypes are? If so, doesn't the "protective camouflage" weaken the force of the point?

What we're getting down to is my point, that people will assume what they will. You want me to have a message, so fine. I offered up my personal belief as a substitute, thinking that if any unintentional racial message is left by my writing it is most likely to be that one. That message is one that I find acceptable to myself. It is not one I have any great drive to convey (at least in this particular work), and it is absolutely not the main (or even a significant) point of what I'm doing.
It is a case of someone seeing something and wanting to believe there is more depth than actually exists. Now, to be clear, I don't have a problem with that. I like writing that inspires people to think about it, to come up with their own interpretations. But in doing that a person must be careful to not project their own invention on that of the author. You are running someone else's writing through the filter of your own experience, beliefs, and desires. That can result in a far different picture than the one that is really there.
I think this is what is happening here. I'm saying that race, real or fictional. means very little to me other than as a means of shorthand (and not a terribly accurate one at that) to describe various traits of differing people. And I'm using fantasy races to try and reinforce the very fact that I am not attempting to make meaningful statements about race with my game. Yet, since you are looking for a message that isn't really there, you find one I'm not really sending.
I'd prefer that  (if they feel they must get a message) it be the message people get from the fictional races in my writing because it's my personal belief, but not because it's what I'm trying to say.

[madelf]

But you are clearly expecting your audience to get the comparison, to realise the stereotype. Its a stereotype, which you know and openly admit. you are consciously reproducingh that stereiotype, thus perpetuating it in the material culture we inhabit. So I'm afraid you don't have a leg to stand on, really,

Clear or not, I'm not expecting my audience to get anything. I'm using an existing stereotype as a template to create a fictional work. Something that has been done (to one extent or another) in every piece of fictional writing ever created. You have to start somewhere. I'm just being honest about where I'm starting. If people can't make the leap of understanding that my creation is not supposed to be an accurate reproduction of an actual people, then there's very little I can do to force them to understand it.

Well then, why do it at all?

'Cause I want to, durn it.
And what's all this about apologetics? I'm not apologizing for anything. I'm just throwing out my reasoning for public dismemberment.

If you freely admit that you cannot acheive a real cultural description, and that to fit it in you have to botch the job, then why use them at all? Why not just (horror!) use humans and skip the whole problem of trying to define multiple cultures, concentrating more finely?

'Cause I'm trying to portray a fictional world, with fictional interaction between fictional nations, over fiction things. If I wanted to write a book about a game centered on a small Irish fishing village I could do it and do it well. I could use actual Irish people, with actual Irish culture, and perfect authenticity. It would also take three times as long to write and be boring as hell when I have no interaction with outsiders because the culture of the neighboring countries wouldn't fit in the 500 page core book.
I mean, come on...I'm not qualified to write about every culture in the world accurately and meaningfully. Do you really expect that should be a requirement for writing something inspired by them? I certainly don't.

It is your decision to introduce this idea, this trope, of the direct relationship between descent and personality characteristics or modes of behaviour. You are going out of your way to draw this distinction through a particular dramatic device. And, as an artist is always responsible for their own weak, appeals to ignorance or innocence are pretty much futile.

There is no particular reason you HAVE to have fantasy races. Thus you CHOSE to have them, and anything your work says or implies about them is your cross to bear. If the audience does not like what it sees, that is your problem, not theirs.

Not really. If the audience doesn't like what it sees, it can look elsewhere. My writing is not done with the purpose to offend. If someone chooses to be offended anyway, that is their problem, not mine.

Indeed so. But then again, your work is not "purely fictional" if it is consiously reproducing a hostile stereotype of the Irish, and relies on the audiences familiarity with that stereotype. Why not go all the way and call 'em bog-trotters? This is NOT a wholly fictional construction at all, and so to appeal to artistic license is invalid.

I used quotations on "purely fictional" because I acknowledge that pure fiction is unattainable. There are only layers of separation from reality.
It does not rely on familiarity with the stereo-type. I person could have never heard of that stereotype and would understand the halflings. My point is that they would not understand the Irish from such a description.
And who says it's a hostile stereotype? It's a stereotype because any effort to define an entire people in a paragraph, or a couple of pages, is doomed to be just that. But hostile?
What's hostile? Friendly? Short, red-headed? Hot tempered? Maybe. The drinking too much? Alright, I'll give you that one. Still, I think the Irish-inspired halflings come across as some pretty cool people in my game. But even so, it's still not being presented as an accurate depiction of the Irish. It's not even necessarily an accurate depiction of all halflings. It's a device. A means to define a fictional people in a way that people can quickly grasp.
That's all it is.

Nope, it would seem to me that I'm criticising exactly what you consciously set out to produce, and are subsequently defending.

Nope. You're criticizing exactly what you believe I consciously set out to produce.

Nope, your "feelings" are unmeasurable, the only MEASURABLE thing is your behaviour. Whic is exactly why appeals to wehat your intent was when you did X or Y are at best of very low value and at worst counterproductive. At best, your self-declared intent probably cannot be conveyed to the bulk of your buyers, who will draw their own concousions from the actual product that ships.

I'll agree with that much. Which is why I am prepared to be misinterpreted. The problem is that I have issues with the concept of racism itself. I believe a person can offend through well-meaning lack of understanding or unfamiliarity. I don't believe a person should be able to be considered a racist through accidental action. It happens all the time, of course. I just don't think it should. It would be nice if a person had to go out of their way to be a racist, but sadly we don't live in an ideal world.

The old straw man rides again...

Saddle up!
But seriously, I don't like it. Not because I want to be offensive and get away with it, but because the PC expectation means I have to worry about accidentally offending someone of another race, who I don't know, rather than simply being able to treat them as I would anyone I met.
I believe that is counter productive to the elimination of racism.
I don't expect everyone to agree with that, of course. Some effort should be made to not be an asshat, and I suppose PC is at least a well-meaning effort.

Bollocks, I'm afraid. Because equally, people can quite firmly believe that people are inherently different, of different degrees of perfection, and should live separately and not inter-marry, WITHOUT that implying that they also hate and violate. It's just rare. But your self-diagnosed intent is basically valueless special pleading.

I think we're closer to agreement than you think. I would agree that thinking other races are less perfect and that we shouldn't mix with them is racist. If I believed that I would be a racist. Racism is not restricted to hatred, I think disdain would certainly qualify.
I'm referring to an inner belief in racial equality, yet being labeled a racist simply because of a misunderstanding, or difference in interpretation. It happens all the time. It shouldn't.

And you cannot excuse racism by failing to recognise it, if that is what it is.

And you can perpetuate it by thinking you recognize it where it doesn't exist.

Ah, but we also know that if the person is hort and red-headed, they'll be up for a fight and a whiskey afterward, don't we?

Only if they're a halfling.
Even in my game, a short red-haired person might be something else. They might be a dwarf, or a short human, or a person with a mixed heritage. And there might even be a halfling that isn't typical of the stereotype (like blond, or dark haired, or a teetotaller). Even in a work of fiction defined by stereotypes, there are infinite possibilities. In the game, your halfling character can be anything you want him to be. The defining stereotype is only the way he'll be expected to be by people who don't know him and are ignorant enough to assume that all halflings are identical. Like the stereotype itself, it's a reflection of the real world.  
The important thing to remember is that it's not the real world.

But if we should meet in real life, I'd be up for a whiskey. I'll buy.  I'd rather a lively debate than a fist fight though.
:)

[contracycle]

Clear or not, I'm not expecting my audience to get anything.

You are; you sare anticipating they will recognise the cluster of identifying features you have represented.  You demonstrate this by saying that it is an Irish sterotype.

If people can't make the leap of understanding that my creation is not supposed to be an accurate reproduction of an actual people, then there's very little I can do to force them to understand it.

Thats a red herring though; clearly, you are not engaged in autobiographical or ethnological work, but equally you are communicating with your audience.  If your communication with your audience repeats stereotypes the audience experience as offensive, you will have offended your audience, and appealing to 'fiction' does not help your case.  That only underlines the fact that this sterotype is your deliberate, chosen metaphor when you could have chosen anything.

'Cause I want to, durn it.

Why?  What is it that you get with this technique that you do not get with an all human cast of dramatis personae?  Thats a serious question by the way.

And what's all this about apologetics? I'm not apologizing for anything. I'm just throwing out my reasoning for public dismemberment.

Apologetics as in the sense of explaining something sympathetically.

'Cause I'm trying to portray a fictional world, with fictional interaction between fictional nations, over fiction things. If I wanted to write a book about a game centered on a small Irish fishing village I could do it and do it well.

Then I suggest your goals are contradictory and incoherent and arguably conceived in the wrong order.  First question, WHY is this a fictional world?  That is not a starting presumption; what is the particular need to create a world that is fictional?  To construct setting and situation such that they address a premise?  Fictional worlds are a method to get to your goal, they are not the goal themselves.

I mean, come on...I'm not qualified to write about every culture in the world accurately and meaningfully. Do you really expect that should be a requirement for writing something inspired by them? I certainly don't.

No, I don't either; but why choose to be inspired by a stereotype?  There are many things that could be easily drawn from Irish or any culture that do not depend on negative stereotyping at all.

Not really. If the audience doesn't like what it sees, it can look elsewhere. My writing is not done with the purpose to offend. If someone chooses to be offended anyway, that is their problem, not mine.

Yes, it can.  But whether your purpose was to offend or not makes little difference.  The fact is, it was printed and shipped and exists as a product in circulation, and if as such it propagates a stereotype people can and will take umbrage.  You are merely trying to offload responsibility for your own creation.  Chris Offili made a painting of the Madonna in elephant dung, without any intent to offend, and yet he was roundly denounced for being offensive anyway.

What's hostile? Friendly? Short, red-headed? Hot tempered? Maybe. The drinking too much? Alright, I'll give you that one. Still, I think the Irish-inspired halflings come across as some pretty cool people in my game.

That may be only because you are not familiar with the way in which the tropes of red-headed people being dishonest thieves, and the Irish being uncultured barbaric drunks, have been and are still in use to justify the English occupation of Ireland, on the basis that they simply could not be trusted to govern themselves.

But even so, it's still not being presented as an accurate depiction of the Irish. It's not even necessarily an accurate depiction of all halflings. It's a device. A means to define a fictional people in a way that people can quickly grasp.  That's all it is.

Sure, but seeing as you have gone out of your way to reproduce a real world stereotype, rather than just a thumbnail generalistion of a really wholly fictional people, you cannot escape responsibility for the deliberate perpetuation of this stereotype.

Nope. You're criticizing exactly what you believe I consciously set out to produce.

Not at all.  You said you intended to reproduce the sterotype for easy recognition, and I completely agree that you succeeded.

I'll agree with that much. Which is why I am prepared to be misinterpreted. The problem is that I have issues with the concept of racism itself. I believe a person can offend through well-meaning lack of understanding or unfamiliarity. I don't believe a person should be able to be considered a racist through accidental action. It happens all the time, of course. I just don't think it should. It would be nice if a person had to go out of their way to be a racist, but sadly we don't live in an ideal world.

I think its a false dichotomy.  Whether you intend to offend is irrelevant.  But equally, identifying a particular behaviour as racist need not imply a moral criticism of the person.  "I didn't realise, I'll fix it" is a perfectly suitable response.

A little while ago, I accidentally did something like this inadvertantly myself.  I asked an African woman I was living with me where she came from, was descended from, in Africa.  But what I had forgotten is that the whole issue of whether Africans or Asians are 'British' is a sore point, and so many people take umbrage at being asked about "where they come from" and deliberately give answers like Birmingham to make the point.

It was an innocent mistake; being descended from a widely travelled family and having travelled myself and inhabited the backpacker community for a while, questions of origin and descent simply don't carry that connotation for me.  It seemed an innocent enough question; but equally, I cannot piously sit on my own ignorance and dismiss a negative response; because most of the time that question IS asked when loaded with a very specific polemical point.  The person who's reacting to me is ALSO innocent, is not deliberately setting out to tar me with a particular brush, but reacts instead on the basis of their own experience.  She can be forgiven for interpreting my question as carrying the same connotations as that question so often does, becuase that is how she has experienced it previously.

And equally, to many readers this halfling steroetype will trigger the response "same old bullshit" regardless of your intent, because your intent doesn't matter at all by comparison to the historical existance of that stereotype.

But seriously, I don't like it. Not because I want to be offensive and get away with it, but because the PC expectation means I have to worry about accidentally offending someone of another race, who I don't know, rather than simply being able to treat them as I would anyone I met.

It seems to me its much more politically correct these days to whine about political correctness than anything else.

I think we're closer to agreement than you think. I would agree that thinking other races are less perfect and that we shouldn't mix with them is racist. If I believed that I would be a racist. Racism is not restricted to hatred, I think disdain would certainly qualify.  I'm referring to an inner belief in racial equality, yet being labeled a racist simply because of a misunderstanding, or difference in interpretation. It happens all the time. It shouldn't.

The point I'm trying to make is that even an innocent reproduction of an existing racist trope is going to cause offence, point blank.  Thats not necessarily your fault in a moral sense; but equally, the fact that it is not your fault in a moral sense does not excuse it from criticism.  And the responsibility for anything your produce still lies with you.  

Only if they're a halfling.
...The defining stereotype is only the way he'll be expected to be by people who don't know him and are ignorant enough to assume that all halflings are identical. Like the stereotype itself, it's a reflection of the real world.  

Let us say you did a thing like WW's clans, each noting the opinion of a faction as to the others.  If at that point you said, it is a common stereotype among humans that halflings are red-headed fighting drunks, then you would have identified it as stereotype, and that would be explicit to all readers who could take a position on that.  If instead you give it as the description of halflings when discussing halflings, then you are making the sterotype true in the game world, and it is to that description that the reader will take a position.

The important thing to remember is that it's not the real world.

Irrelevant.  The product was produced in the real world, and will be read in the real world.  You aknowledge that some effort should be made not to be an asshat; the problem is, that your anonymous buyers may well look at it and think that you spefically went out of your way to be an asshat.

[John Kim]

As a suggestion, maybe the specific approach of "pick real-world stereotypes and use them for fantasy races" should be split out into its own thread?  Doctor Xero, what do you think?  

Also, a meta comment to both contracycle and madelf here:  contracycle's last two posts had 15 and 11 quotes, respectively, of one or two sentences each; and madelf's last post had 11 quotes.  The official http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=1604">Etiquette at The Forge is that "line-by-line" replies are discouraged and considered flaming if used often.  I'm not the judge of what a "line-by-line" reply is or when "too often" is, but it seems like we are at least getting close to flaming here.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

This is to everyone: Review all of John Kim's posts on this thread, take his advice and exhibit your commitment to it, or the thread will be closed.

To Gareth (contracycle): I think you know better than to start treating people like you're doing here. Shape it up, now.

Best,
Ron

[madelf]

You are; you sare anticipating they will recognise the cluster of identifying features you have represented.  You demonstrate this by saying that it is an Irish sterotype.

It's a fine line, (and probably a shaky and not relevant one) but I'm not technically anticipating that they will recognize the features, and the game is certainly not dependant on them doing so. However, I'm expecting they probably will recognize it, and therefore I am admitting that as my source. I'm fessing up before I get called on it, if you will. And I intend to do this broadly in the book. As in... "The various fantasy races portrayed in this work are inspired in part by limited stereotypes existing in our own world, but should not be confused with the actual races or cultures they may superficially resemble." I'm not going to go down the line and state the sources, as many of the races embody multiple sources both real and mythological, as well as some I've pulled out of my butt.

Thats a red herring though; clearly, you are not engaged in autobiographical or ethnological work, but equally you are communicating with your audience.  If your communication with your audience repeats stereotypes the audience experience as offensive, you will have offended your audience, and appealing to 'fiction' does not help your case.  That only underlines the fact that this sterotype is your deliberate, chosen metaphor when you could have chosen anything.

Well, that is as may be. And I believe it's something over which I can exert only limited control. I have to base my fictional creation on something. I chose stereotype as I believe it is a valid source. (And note that I'm not talking about negative stereotype. Stereotype can be positive, negative, or neutral. As I see it, the only defining element common to all stereotype is that it is a limited view of something far more comlex. Just to make sure we're not thinking of different meanings for the same term).
Given that starting premise, I could (and I think will, just to be sure) then go further, to state that the very definitions I use to describe the races are, themselves, stereotypes. I can indicate that the world, fictional or otherwise, is not made up of absolutes, but of individuals.
And then if people still want to be offended they will. It's not something I'll loose sleep over.

Why?  What is it that you get with this technique that you do not get with an all human cast of dramatis personae?  Thats a serious question by the way.

See the reasons I listed in the first place. They haven't changed. But I'll elaborate.

1) Fantasy races are kewl. They're fun. They're a little bit of "let's pretend" that I like to have in my games. Sometimes. Being the cliches that they are, I think they give a game a sense of not taking itself too seriously, which in turn promotes a lighthearted sense of play. Which makes it that much more interesting to address something less lighthearted within that context. (I'm a big fan of Joss Whedon's style of lighthearted horror. We all may die at any monent, and the world may be about to end, but that doesn't meant you can't joke about it)

2) I think that even though the traditional fantasy races are cliched, I think there is still potential to give them more depth than they often receieve. There is still room to tweak them, and I want to play with that.

3) The protective camoflage actually relates to item 1. Giving the game a lighthearted feel may help to give the idea that the stereotypes used are, like everything else, all in good fun. This item is actually the least of my concerns, even though the most is being made of it.

Apologetics as in the sense of explaining something sympathetically.

Ah, I understand now.

Then I suggest your goals are contradictory and incoherent and arguably conceived in the wrong order.  First question, WHY is this a fictional world?  That is not a starting presumption; what is the particular need to create a world that is fictional?  To construct setting and situation such that they address a premise?  Fictional worlds are a method to get to your goal, they are not the goal themselves.

You may very well be right, there. I didn't sit down at the start of this and think about why I wanted a fictional world. Didn't have to. I knew I wanted a fictional world. I thought about sticking my fantastic elements into the real world, and it didn't "feel" right to me. So, I tossed the idea aside and went onward.
I guess I just want elements within that world which would not make sense in the real world. I don't want to do alternate history. I want to do fantasy. It may steal from reality as a source of inspiration, but I also want to be able to throw the real world out the window as I please.
I don't know if that makes it valid or not. But it's good enough for me.

No, I don't either; but why choose to be inspired by a stereotype?  There are many things that could be easily drawn from Irish or any culture that do not depend on negative stereotyping at all.

"I think what we have here is a lack of communication."
It seems we're seeing the same words and assigning different meanings. As I said above, I don't see stereotype as necessarily negative. It certainly can be, and too often is, but it doesn't have to be.
I would define any elements of a real world culture that I (or anyone else) could display within the limits of a 1000 or 2000 word write-up in a gamebook as stereotypical. There simply is not enough space to do it justice. It would take a sizable book in it's own right to even scratch the surface of a culture with any sort of honesty.
As far as negativity within a stereotype goes, there's negativity in cultures and the relationships between them. People are imperfect. Good or bad,a stereotype is the way a group is perceived from the outside. As long as that is acknowleged as the case, and as being potentially erroneous and almost certainly limited in scope...then I really can't see the major harm.

If I'm contacted by a halfling who is offended by my portrayal of his people, perhaps I'll reconsider. But since I'm not portraying a real person, I think I'm safe in my stubborness.

Yes, it can.  But whether your purpose was to offend or not makes little difference.  The fact is, it was printed and shipped and exists as a product in circulation, and if as such it propagates a stereotype people can and will take umbrage.  You are merely trying to offload responsibility for your own creation.  Chris Offili made a painting of the Madonna in elephant dung, without any intent to offend, and yet he was roundly denounced for being offensive anyway.

o_0
...okay...
Officially not offended by that, but I still have to wonder what he was thinking.

But anyway..
Yes, I understand that people may get offended despite my best intentions. All I can do is act within the edicts of my own conscience and go ahead. Either that or I can go away quietly and hide myself from public view.
What I cannot do is expect to please all of the people, all of the time. So, I'm just going to do what I do, the way I see fit, and let the chips fall where they may. And that'll have to be good enough.

That may be only because you are not familiar with the way in which the tropes of red-headed people being dishonest thieves, and the Irish being uncultured barbaric drunks, have been and are still in use to justify the English occupation of Ireland, on the basis that they simply could not be trusted to govern themselves.

I'm well aware of that. The English have viewed the Irish as not much more than marginally human for centuries. And there's a stereotype in itself (as I'm sure not all the English people feel that way). But there's also some facts behind parts of it. The Irish authors I've read acknowlege that alcohol has been the bane of Ireland for most of its modern history. That's not a slap in the face of Irishmen everywhere, it's not racist. It's not anything but a statistic until it is assumed that all the Irish, every man woman and child, are somehow lessened by it.
The red-headed theives I actually hadn't heard about, or if I have I've forgotten it.  But it's still ludicrous. I'm not going to waste my time making sure I never portray a thief with red hair just in case someone makes that warped leap of logic. (But thanks for a good example of accidental "racism")

Sure, but seeing as you have gone out of your way to reproduce a real world stereotype, rather than just a thumbnail generalistion of a really wholly fictional people, you cannot escape responsibility for the deliberate perpetuation of this stereotype.

Again, I don't believe there is such a thing as a wholly fictional people, some are just hiding their sources better than others.
And honestly I don't care if I'm perpetuating a stereotype. I'm borrowing it because I feel it's appropriate to what I'm trying to do, I'm acknowledging that it is a stereotype in both in the real world and within the scope of the fictional work. That's just going to have to be good enough.

Not at all.  You said you intended to reproduce the sterotype for easy recognition, and I completely agree that you succeeded.

Did I say that? I suppose I might have, but I don't recall it.
And it doesn't really sound like what I'm intending to say.

I believe I did say something about reflecting real world cultures to give a sense of the familiar. That's a little different. I was talking about making things seem more realistic by utilizing existing patterns of culture as a basis for the fictional world.

I think its a false dichotomy.  Whether you intend to offend is irrelevant.  But equally, identifying a particular behaviour as racist need not imply a moral criticism of the person.  "I didn't realise, I'll fix it" is a perfectly suitable response.

A suitable response, but not one that's available very often. From what I've seen, people rarely suggest calmly and without rancor that you might act differently or use a different term because it's what they prefer. The response to an innocent faux pax is usually met with a bit more hostility than that.
If everyone could express their intent and preferences without accusations of racism, then all would be right with the world. Sadly, they can't in most cases. This is what I mean about it being possible to see racism where it doesn't exist. I'd like people to stop and think before crying racism when it's really only unfamiliarity.

And equally, to many readers this halfling steroetype will trigger the response "same old bullshit" regardless of your intent, because your intent doesn't matter at all by comparison to the historical existance of that stereotype.

I really don't understand why this should be the case.
If this is presented as a stereotype of the halfling people, in the context of a time period when anyone who didn't live in your neighborhood was a practically a different species, and it's pointed out that even fictionally it's only a brief and innaccurate glance at an admirable  and complex people....then how in the hell is that "bullshit"?

Simply because I've acknowledged that stereotypes exist? And included examples of them in my fictional setting to give some realism to the relationships between the fantasy races? I say that is what's bullshit.
I suppose it's better to just have the same old elves and dwarves hate each other just because that's what elves and dwarves do? I suspect you're a little too bright to be satisfied with that tripe.

It seems to me its much more politically correct these days to whine about political correctness than anything else.

Could be. Could be.

The point I'm trying to make is that even an innocent reproduction of an existing racist trope is going to cause offence, point blank.  Thats not necessarily your fault in a moral sense; but equally, the fact that it is not your fault in a moral sense does not excuse it from criticism.  And the responsibility for anything your produce still lies with you.  

I can accept that. And I think I've actually gotten enough out of this discussion that I can do a better job of presenting things in accordance with my intentions. I think in context, and with the proper treatment, it will work out.

Let us say you did a thing like WW's clans, each noting the opinion of a faction as to the others.  If at that point you said, it is a common stereotype among humans that halflings are red-headed fighting drunks, then you would have identified it as stereotype, and that would be explicit to all readers who could take a position on that.  If instead you give it as the description of halflings when discussing halflings, then you are making the sterotype true in the game world, and it is to that description that the reader will take a position.

Based on our discussion, I think I may want to reinforce that point a bit more. The WW-based example you give is in-line with my intent, but , as currently written, it may very well not be as apparent as it might be. The descriptions of the fantasy races are very much meant to be broad strokes, or stereotypes, and I'm not opposed to the idea of making that more obvious.

Irrelevant.  The product was produced in the real world, and will be read in the real world.  You aknowledge that some effort should be made not to be an asshat; the problem is, that your anonymous buyers may well look at it and think that you spefically went out of your way to be an asshat.

I never go out of my way to be an asshat.
It just comes naturally.



Overall, I think has has been a pretty productive discussion.
I'd say you've improved my future product.
Thanks!

[madelf]

Oops.
I didn't see John's post until I had already posted. Must have come on while I was typing.

Sorry.

I'll try and remember for next time.