The Forge Archives

I've decided to finish up my Fantasy Heartbreaker so I can move on to other projects with a clean conscience. Since coming to the Forge, I've decided to change a few a things around, so I still need to work a couple of things out. Here's a summary, as soon as I finish writing it all up I'll get a PDF out.

E.rpg LITE

1. Description
A basic fantasy dungeon-crawl.

2. Basic Task Resolution
[2d10 + modifiers vs. target number].

3. Character Points
-Chargen and advancement will be based on character points ala GURPS. However, I have also come up with other uses for them as well.
-Character points will be used to purchase both skills AND equipment.
-I'm debating adding in a feature that will allow character points to be used as a back-up hit point system. If your character drops below 0 HP, they start losing character points. If you lose all your character points, then you die. This would make dying alot less common, but would still impose a penalty for injury.
-I'm also debating adding a feature that will allow players to spend char points for bonuses to rolls and other special actions. This would give players the choice of either saving the points for advancement or using them for temporary gains.
-I don't know if this all would be tying too many features to one resource.

4. Race
I have no occupation-oriented "classes," but race fulfills that feature, dictating the cost of skills, as well as imposing various traits and talents (see point 6).
-Man, common
-Man, wild [sorta based off Tolkien's wild men,  barbarian-types.]
-Man, wizards [(need a better name) these will be the only men capable of wielding magic.]
-Elves
-Dwarves
-Hobbits/ Halfings (whatever you want to call them)
-Leprechauns
-Gnomes

5. Stats
These aren't physical stats, but basic game-playing stats.
-Base Attack Skill
-Base Magic Skill
-Hit Points
-?Maybe Magic Points?

6. Traits & Talents
-Traits are like innate skills (like memory, reflexes, or muscles), while Talents are like innate abilities (like good eyesight, or perfect direction). Traits will be represented by a modifier (-5 to upwards of +10), while Talents will be represented as a description.
-Traits are meant to function similiar to "saves" in DnD, they're a modifier to some sort of roll. Talents, however, are more kin to GURPS dis/advantages.
-Traits default to 0 (average)
-Note, traits and talents are meant to be used on their own, meaning they are not add-on modifers to other rolls (a "muscle" modifer is not added to damage, for example).

7. Skills & Feats
-Similiar to Traits and Talents, Skills and Feats are learned skills and abilities. Functionally, Skills act as modifiers while Feats are simple binary on/off abilities.
-Skills & Feats can be purchased in 2 ways: Individually, or in groups aka "packs." Packs will feature a discounted price, but not all packs will be available to all races. Also, packs will neccessarily have a higher price than an individual skill, so the character must have more character points saved up.

8. Combat
-Combat will be broken up into rounds ala DnD, though rounds will be broken into 2 phases: Players first declare their intended actions from slowest to fastest (2d10 + attack skill). Second, characters act out their declared actions in reverse order, fastest to slowest.
-Attack = Opposed rolls: (2d10 + Base Attack Skill + Weapon Skill + Weapon Offense Bonus) vs. (2d10 + Attack Skill + Armor + Weapon Defense Bonus)
-Degree of success = damage dealt.

9. Magic
-Based on various magical skills & Feats
-Same basic 2d10 vs. target number, though if magic-users opt to modify the spell's effect (either in number of targets, duration, or overall effect), the spell's target number will change accordingly.
-Damage and/or effect will probably be determined by degreee of success.
-I haven't decided if I'll put in some limiting factor, like magic points.

Quote from: timfire-I'm debating adding in a feature that will allow character points to be used as a back-up hit point system. If your character drops below 0 HP, they start losing character points. If you lose all your character points, then you die. This would make dying alot less common, but would still impose a penalty for injury.

IMHO that would be the gem hidden in the fantasy heartbreaker, if done well. Then again, I wouldn't want to apply the term "fantasy heartbreaker" in the first place. For one, you obviously know quite well what you're doing, and second it sounds like a neat and lean system, with a couple of nice features, well suited for the occasional fantasy game.

Quote from: montag

Quote from: timfire-I'm debating adding in a feature that will allow character points to be used as a back-up hit point system. If your character drops below 0 HP, they start losing character points. If you lose all your character points, then you die. This would make dying alot less common, but would still impose a penalty for injury.

IMHO that would be the gem hidden in the fantasy heartbreaker, if done well.

This might lead to a frustrating downward spiral under some circumstances:

A character spending XP to avoid death will be weaker than the other PCs...and hence more likely to be in danger of dying again...which he can only avert by spending even more XP...

Westend's D6 system has a similar mechanic and my group hated it, even though spending XP to avoid death was optional. For us, it came down to "Die now or suck forever."

YMMV.

(Our D&D group currently uses a house rule which grants a +25% XP bonus to characters falling behind.)

Regards,

Hal

Quote from: timfire-Talents, however, are more kin to GURPS dis/advantages.

I don't know whether to take this as though there is some kind of disadvantage system implied in your concept, but a mthod that you might consider instead of downgrading the total Character points of the characters is allowing them to buy a suitable disadvantage to reflect their near death experience.  Rather than loosing the points to build up new skills, they end up with things like lingering wounds, phobias triggered by traumatic experiences, etc.

Quote from: Halzebier

Quote from: montag

Quote from: timfire...-I'm debating adding in a feature that will allow character points to be used as a back-up hit point system. If your character drops below 0 HP, they start losing character points. If you lose all your character points, then you die....

IMHO that would be the gem hidden in the fantasy heartbreaker, if done well.

...A character spending XP to avoid death will be weaker than the other PCs...and hence more likely to be in danger of dying again...which he can only avert by spending even more XP...
... For us, it came down to "Die now or suck forever."

Absolutely, which is why I included the conditional "if done well". I was thinking of an option to go that extra mile to defeat the demon king, more or less retiring the character afterwards or shifting his duties from hack and slay to rule and oppress ;-)
For instance, The Dark Eye offers some sorcerers the opportunity to sacrifice all their ability points in one final spell, ending the characters life unless help is _really_ close, but providing earth shattering powers (it's a spell point system) for that ultimate sacrifice.
Alternatively one might have very specific conditions for the recovery of ability points, like questing for some deity or stuff like that.

Quote from: arwinkI don't know whether to take this as though there is some kind of disadvantage system implied in your concept, but a mthod that you might consider instead of downgrading the total Character points of the characters is allowing them to buy a suitable disadvantage to reflect their near death experience.  Rather than loosing the points to build up new skills, they end up with things like lingering wounds, phobias triggered by traumatic experiences, etc.

I love this idea! It might find itself 'borrowed' sometime soon.

I don't think you're overloading character points at all.  In fact, I think instead of having a magic points subsystem, as you suggest, you should just use character points for that.  As well as all the other uses for CP that you suggest.

Heartbreaker?  Mmmm...Nope.  Looks like a cool little game.  I'd write it up and flesh it out.

Quote from: timfire
-I'm also debating adding a feature that will allow players to spend char points for bonuses to rolls and other special actions. This would give players the choice of either saving the points for advancement or using them for temporary gains.

I've played under a variety of rules that do this with good results. The most recent version capped the amount of points or changes that could be added to the character per session.

John

QuoteI wouldn't want to apply the term "fantasy heartbreaker" in the first place. For one, you obviously know quite well what you're doing, and second it sounds like a neat and lean system, with a couple of nice features, well suited for the occasional fantasy game.

QuoteHeartbreaker? Mmmm...Nope. Looks like a cool little game. I'd write it up and flesh it out.

ok, seriously, could ANYONE please explain clearly to me how E.rpg LITE is somehow NOT a heartbreaker, and yet apparently Eclipse (my system) is?

cos i'm not seeing it.

Quote from: Ravienok, seriously, could ANYONE please explain clearly to me how E.rpg LITE is somehow NOT a heartbreaker, and yet apparently Eclipse (my system) is?
cos i'm not seeing it.

I'll give it a try, though I admit I'm still not perfectly certain what the definition of a FH is.
Anyway, the main point for me is the assumption of having come up with something radically different, when in fact you've "merely" modified DnD. That's one "heartbreak" for me, seeing so much energy, work and enthusiasm wasted, or rather not spent for more worthwhile stuff. timfire admitted he was "merely" presenting another generic fantasy game, you seemed more "deluded" in comparison. That may only be an effect of presentation though.
Second, E.rpg LITE is closer to GURPS and FUDGE as far as I can tell, so less obviously related to DnD than Eclipse. This has little to do with FH.
Third, Eclipse seemed to retain lots of unnecessary stuff from DnD, unquestioned assumptions etc., whereas E.rpg LITE is conscious in its copying and does it on purpose. That's another heartbreak, because one notices that people want to get away from _something_ or some feature of DnD (in your case I'd guess it's Hitpoints and non-dangerous combat) but stick to so much ballast instead of either doing a pure mod or basing their design on the change and its effect on actual play. This relates to another heartbreak, seeing an innovative idea buried beneath layers and layers of DnD ideas.
Does that make sense to you?

Hello,

This thread needs moderating badly.

1. Ravien, threads in Indie Design need to stay on-topic very, very tightly. If you have an issue to discuss about Eclipse and Heartbreakers, take it to another thread, probably in RPG Theory. I encourage you to do so, because apparently the topic will crop up in others' threads if it doesn't get handled on its own.

2. Timfire, although I applaud what you're doing, I also think you need to consider the publishing standards for Indie Design. If this really is a "clear my head" exercise, then RPG Theory is the place for it. You should only be posting here if this is a game design that you intend to publish in some way. Even just planning to post it at a website is enough. Do you plan to do that? If so, carry on here.

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHello,

2. Timfire, although I applaud what you're doing, I also think you need to consider the publishing standards for Indie Design. If this really is a "clear my head" exercise, then RPG Theory is the place for it. You should only be posting here if this is a game design that you intend to publish in some way. Even just planning to post it at a website is enough. Do you plan to do that? If so, carry on here.

Best,
Ron

I had assumed that since he opened with

Quoteas soon as I finish writing it all up I'll get a PDF out.

that his intention was to publish it in some public fashion.

Ron, yes, I plan on "publishing" this on the web when I'm done. I'm starting to get use to how things are done at the Forge, and I appreciate its very focused standards. But nonetheless, I'll let this particular thread die. I need to finish writing it up, anyway. When I have a completed document I'll post a new thread.

I'm flattered that you all don't consider this a Hearbreaker. Also, thanks for the suggestions. Particularly the "injury in lieu of losing char points" that's a good one.

Also one quick clarification: I did intend to imply both positive and negative Traits/Talents (meaning both advantages and disadvantages).