BONES the RPG

Valamir · March 31, 2004, 06:05:31 PM

QuoteI might also be persuaded that all magic should be ritual magic, effectively ruling out combat usage (heresy!).

What if you combined that. Casting the spells is ritual magic. But that magic can then be stored in "easy to swallow capsules"...heh...charges in a wand, potions, egyptian style amulets, figurines of power, magic dust, etc.

That way using the stored magic can just follow whatever rules you'd have for a generic action which you'd describe as activating the charm.

That way you get both worlds. And I've always liked token based magic. Tieing a twist of grass around a pebble and putting in it your shoe always seemed more flavorful than simply casting "protection from evil" or something.

charles ferguson · April 01, 2004, 08:48:21 AM

Hi Andy

I agree with your & other posters' conclusion: limiting the number of icons to "enough & no more" is going to be the big one in Bones: I think your ideal of eliminating lookups is right on.

I can't see any mechanical problem with a single magical icon -- call it 'mana', or 'big-p Power' or 'essence' or whatever -- I think it would work, it would be simple, it would be flexible enough to cover anything you wanted it to do. But that very unlimited, undefined quality would make it impossible to differentiate functionally between magic-using chars: what's to stop a character from acting like a druid one minute, a demon-summoning diabolist the next, & potion-mixing alchemist the minute after that?

Of course, this may actually be completely be fine, if it suits your setting & ideas on what you want to do with magic in Bones.
(It's at odds with my reading of your goals in character design, but that's for you to say.)

So I think an essential first step in building the magic system is to lock down your concept of magic.

I agree with previous posters that this is an awesome-cool game in the making; but I disagree with some of them in that I think trying to build a cross-genre (or even generic fantasy) rules set for Bones, at this stage, is at best an unneccesary distraction & at worst, will dilute the power of what you're trying to do & push the finish date way further than you probably want it to be (I'm speaking from my own experiences here though Andy, so I may well be underestimating your capabilities :)

My $0.02 is that Cold Iron is a strong setting, & all the setting you need right now. If the game works the way you want it to, there'll be plenty of forthcoming versions if you so desire to widen the potential settings, & no shortage of people eager to pitch in their own ideas on ways to do that :)

Having said all that, if you decided against the single magic icon, the best I can think of is to keep the number of icons as small & simple as possible.

One way would be to assign magic icons to a small number of basic functional groups.

For example, you could do it by intent, something like:

charles ferguson · April 01, 2004, 10:51:02 AM

Hey--I just had an idea that might work for the 'single magic icon' model.

I'm thinking of the magic icon as representing the char's power over 'ambient magic power'. It could be like:

potential for magic. Performing a magical act requires a trigger: that is, rolling an icon in some other skill.

So the thing that defines 'what kind of magic' a char can do, is their OTHER skills.

For example:

A roll of essence + Outdoor would be needed for a char to use Nature magic (like druid stuff, for example).
A roll of essence + Stealth would be needed for a char to use magic to avoid detection (invisibility, illusion, seeming)
A roll of essence + Perception would be needed for a char to use magic to scry, or read thoughts etc.
A roll of essence + Maneuver would be needed for a char to use magic to make the Hero's Salmon Leap (a la Cuchulain)

And so on.

So different 'types of magic':

a) WOULDN'T require an additional icon for each new magic type
b) WOULD require the char to have skill in the area they want to do their magic in--the more they have, the better they'll be at using that kind of magic (makes sense to me...)

You could take the view that you 'weave' magic into stuff you can already do, or know something about.

How It Might Work
---------------------

If you used magic (that is, rolled at least 1 essence, & at least 1 in the skill area needed to trigger your magic) the success would = trigger skill icons + essence icons rolled.

If you roll some essence, but don't roll the skill area you need to use the kind of magic you're hoping for: well, tough, you don't get to use that magic that action.
Your options are:

1) ignore the essence icon/s, & forget about magic for that action
2) try & think around the problem, & use magic in some other way using a different skill icon that you DID roll
3) STORE your essence that action (you're readying your magic, & can't do anything else, as per classic D&D magic-users) & hope you roll the trigger skill you want next roll. This roll's essence will acummulate, ADDING to your success for when/if you DO finally unleash that magic.

This last would allow some powerful effects to build up. You could rule that chars can "store" a max of 'magic rolls' = to their total essence icons for a single act of magic.

Characters who 'stored' essence, but who rolled NO essence in the very next roll would LOSE CONTROL of their magic in some kind of critical fumble (ooops!)

Another twist would be to use Ralph's token idea: rule that tokens (made ahead of time, ie the 'ritual magic' slant) ALREADY have their own specific trigger (ie, 'magic type' or 'skill') built in a time of creation. They just need an essence roll to 'power/activate' them.
So, they would be way more reliable, especially to 'high magic' chars who have a big chance of rolling lots of essence, but NOT of rolling a given 'trigger' skill when they need it. In other words--doing powerful magic 'on the fly' is a lot more unreliable than using tokens.
Conversely, a char with a strong skill & only one (say) icon of essence would have a low chance of being able to use magic in any given roll, but when they do, they are pretty likely to be able to trigger it in the area of their expertise.

Use of tokens could be done with or without the 'storing essence' rule.

Far as I can see, this would work with spells, rituals, prayers, miracles, mystic abilities, heroic feats--any kind of magic you care to include, because it doesn't try & codify the source of the magic, just its expression. (A Heal has the same result whether its an incantation, a potion, or comes from divine intervention).

Well that's me--waaay past my bedtime ;(

andy · April 01, 2004, 05:48:12 PM

Again, lots of good suggestions! Charles' ideas on tying magic to other icons is particularly interesting and creative, but I'm afraid that I'd end up with everyone wanting magic as a performance enhancer. I would prefer if not everyone had magic, but I may have to bite the bullet.

I plan to require players to choose a theme for their magic as part of character creation, with players able to pick a second theme if they have a magic icon on more than 4 of their dice (sort of like I handle skill mastery).

I do like the idea of prepared spells (sort of like racked spells in Amber or even memorized spells in gool old DnD). I'm thinking that all magic is ritualized, and that you can store one spell in a fetish per magic icon you possess.

Now, for a little more work on defining the parameters of magic...

any suggestions?

Andy

taalyn · April 01, 2004, 05:59:21 PM

Which parameters are you looking for? Complexity guidelines? Range/target stuff?

Frankly, as simple as the system is (a good thing) I'd be cautious of getting complicated.

Aidan

charles ferguson · April 01, 2004, 11:54:22 PM

Hi Andy,

Quote from: Andy
Again, lots of good suggestions! Charles' ideas on tying magic to other icons is particularly interesting and creative

Thanks!

Quote from: Andy
but I'm afraid that I'd end up with everyone wanting magic as a performance enhancer. I would prefer if not everyone had magic

Yeah, this would promote a "most everyone knows a few scraps of magic" kind of environment--like Earthsea, where everyone had a few charms or whatever; or a religious setting (to use another magical tack) where anyone can call on the Gods/spirits for help, & sometimes, they answer. If this isn't how you see magic working in Bones, then this is out.

If you think the "tying magic to skills" idea still has possibility though, but want magic to be the domain of specialists, then one way is to make magic ineffectual at low success-levels. So there'd be no point getting 'just an icon or two' in magic.

Some different possiblities in this direction might be:
[list=a]
[*] give magic a built-in 'difficulty' that makes it not worth doing at low chances of success (ie a default hindrance? a minimium number of success to work at all? a big chance of things going wrong at low success?)
[*] give normal characters a natural 'resistance' to magic that pretty well nullifies anything at low levels, so "1 or 2" icons in magic is simply a waste of time.
[*] give some kind of penalty for attempting to use magic. If characters had to make a specific 'action roll' to work magic, (& paid a price whether they succeeded or not), then their naturally low chance of succeeding with only one or two icons might be disincentive enough.
[/list:o]

Quote from: Andy
I plan to require players to choose a theme for their magic as part of character creation, with players able to pick a second theme if they have a magic icon on more than 4 of their dice (sort of like I handle skill mastery).

I think would work fine too, & it would preserve magic as working like any other skill.

Quote from: Andy
Now, for a little more work on defining the parameters of magic...
any suggestions?
Andy

Hmmm.
My philosophy on game mechanics is that there's always a thousand different ways to skin a cat. For me the trick is always deciding first on what you're aiming for. From there you can always find mechanics that will fit around it. With enough time (or talented people giving input :) you'll always be able to come up with a whole bunch of ideas that you can tweak, hammer & tease into something that fits just right.

So before I could contribute anything sensible about parameters I'd need to know the answers to questions like:

[list=1]
[*] what do you want magic to be able to do in Bones?
[*] what don't you want it to be able to do?
[*] what feel do you want it to have?
[*] is it going to be reliable & predictable but limited, like classic D&D/Vancian spells?
[*] is it going to be big & flashy & with few limits when it works, but unreliable: that is, powerful & scary--& not just to the target, with the chance of disaster lying in wait for the user who over-reaches themself?
[/list:o]

andy · April 02, 2004, 04:57:53 PM

Well gang, here is my redrafted magic system for Bones:

MAGIC

   In Bones, Magic is a special skill represented by the magic icon. The system has no set spells, or even types of magic. Rather, a character's use of magic and the theme for the character's magic are defined by the player in a manner consistent with the universal rules of magic. As long as the character's use of magic falls within both the character's theme and is allowed by the Universal Rules, the character can use his magic as he sees fit.
The Universal Rules of Magic
   All magic (with the exception of alchemy, which is discussed below) is governed by the three Universal Rules of magic:

1.   Magic is immediate. This rule means that, while the effects of magic may be lasting (e.g. a fire ignited by a fireball burns even after the magic is gone), magic itself is instantaneous. Thus, there are no lingering spells, and if a magic wielding character wants a magic effect to continue, he must continue to devote himself to the task which created the magic effect.

Example
Bob's Magic theme is Elemental Magic. Bob decides to create a wall of flame to defend him against missile fire. Each combat turn that Bob wants his wall to burn, he must perform the magic task. When Bob devotes his attention to a different task, the wall disappears.

2.   Magic is hard. Generally speaking, achieving a result by magic (with respect to unopposed tasks) is twice as hard as achieving that result by mundane means.

Example
Bob decides to break down a door with mighty gout of flame. If someone were physically trying to break the door down, it would be a difficult task and the GM would throw down five challenge dice. Because Bob is using magic, the GM doubles the result of his throw down to oppose Bob's task.

3.   Magic takes time. To call upon magic requires a concentrated, overt effort. A character attempting to use magic must declare in advance of rolling his bones how many tasks he will devote to achieving the desired effect. Magical effects created as a single task (and thus, with a single roll) are referred to as spells. Magical effects created as the result of multiple tasks are referred to as rituals.
For each task spent devoted to creating the magical effect, the character rolls his bones and counts his successes. Only after completing the last task, the character adds up his successes in the aggregate to determine success or failure. The world does not stop while the character is engaged in magic, and other characters undertake their tasks normally.

Example
Bob has decided to use air magic to have the winds propel him 100 meters to the top of a cliff. Climbing the cliff would be a difficult task to accomplish by mundane means, which means both that the GM will be throwing down five challenge dice and that (because Bob is using magic) the GM will double the result. Bob declares that he will devote four tasks and use a magic ritual to fly to the top of the cliff. The GM throws down the challenge dice, gets three Nulls, which he multiplies by two to get six Nulls. Bob will succeed in having the winds bear him to the top of the cliff if he generates seven total successes with four rolls of his bones.
Bob starts his ritual and rolls three successes (Universal, Magic, and Mental). Unfortunately, those tenacious goblins happen upon Bob as he is beginning his second task devoted to the ritual. Bob rolls three more successes on his second roll of his bones—one short of flying to the top of the cliff.
In the third turn, the vengeful goblins (Bob's book did not treat them kindly) attack Bob, declaring that combat will be there task. Bob has a decision to make—will he continue the ritual, hoping to survive and reach the cliff face or will he abandon the ritual and switch to combat to defend himself?
Where's Ragnar when you need him?

      Magical Themes

   Each character who wields magic must pick a single theme for his magic and define the parameters of that theme. Characters may choose a second theme when they have a magic icon on at least five separate character dice and may choose a third theme when they have a magic icon on at least ten separate character dice. After choosing a Theme, the character must define the Effect of his magic and describe the Limitations of his magic.

Example
Bob has made the Theme of his magic "Elemental Magic" and has defined the Effect of his magic as being "Creating and manipulating the four traditional elements of earth, air, fire and water." Bob describes the Limitation on his magic as being "restricted to elemental manipulation and creation." Bob's friend Father Joe, a roman catholic priest, defines the Theme of his magic as being "Miracles of Faith" and describes the Effect of his magic as being "benefiting the faithful and combating Satan." Father Joe describes the Limitation of his magic as being "restricted to the service of the Lord."

Magic in combat
   Because magic takes time and the Single Task Rule limits characters to a single task in any given turn, using magic in combat is risky. Provided that the character's magic includes an appropriate effect, the character can use his magic in place of either attack or defend successes in combat. Because combat is an opposed task, the Magic is Hard Rule does not apply.

Example
Bob decides to burn two of his goblin rivals with a fireball. Combat ensues and Bob rolls 4 successes (2 Mental successes and two Magic successes). Because Bob is using his fire magic to attack at range, he may treat his successes as missile successes, and Bob elects to apply one of them against the first goblin (who has no defend successes) and three of them against the second goblin (who has one universal success allocated to defense—being NPCs, the goblins had to allocate their dice first). The first goblin takes one damage and loses one of its character dice. Because the goblin was injured by flames, the GM decides to also award the goblin a flaming hindrance die. After subtracting the second goblin's Universal success from Bob's three attack successes, the second goblin takes two damage—because the second goblin only has two character dice, it is incapacitated (or in this case, smoked). Meanwhile, the first goblin rolled one attack success, which Bob (who has no defense successes) cannot block. If Bob had been wearing armor (he's not) the armor could have contributed a defense success or even been discarded as it absorbed the damage. Instead, Bob loses one character die to injury.
Bob next decides to use his elemental magic to form a wall of fire surrounding him to protect him from damage and injure opponents who strike him. The burning goblin elects to attack again. The goblin rolls one attack success and his flaming die rolls a Blank face. Bob rolls his three remaining bones and gets a Universal Success, a Mental Success and a Magic Success. Bob decides to allocate one of his successes to defense (his shield flares and blocks the goblin's blow) and two to attack. Because the goblin has no way to defend against Bob's successes, his flaming shield fries the goblin to a crisp.

Well, please give it a good read and give me your two cents.

Thanks in advance.

Andy

andy · April 02, 2004, 05:08:08 PM

Charles asked good questions:

Quotewhat do you want magic to be able to do in Bones?

Pretty much everything, in a low fantasy sense.

Quotewhat don't you want it to be able to do?

I don't want overly powerful effects. LOTR would have been a short film if Gandalf could teleport.

Quotewhat feel do you want it to have?

I would like to have magic be consistant and recognizable--ie based on given themes. For example, Nature Magic can affect plants and animals, weather, etc.

Quoteis it going to be reliable & predictable but limited, like classic D&D/Vancian spells?

is it going to be big & flashy & with few limits when it works, but unreliable: that is, powerful & scary--& not just to the target, with the chance of disaster lying in wait for the user who over-reaches themself?

The BONES system itself has a relatively high level of risk for characters. I want the magic system to mirror this to an extent. I'm still working on the fatigue rule.

Thanks for your questions.

BONES 2.0 out next week.

Andy
[/quote]

andy · April 21, 2004, 05:07:21 PM

I am finally surfacing for air--

I am close to BONES 2.0--really, I am.

Here is the semi-permanent version of the magic system--

In Bones, Magic is a special skill represented by the magic icon. The system has no set spells, or even types of magic. Rather, a character's use of magic and the theme for the character's magic are defined by the player in a manner consistent with the universal rules of magic. As long as the character's use of magic falls within both the character's theme and is allowed by the Universal Rules, the character can use his magic as he sees fit.

The Universal Rules of Magic

   All magic (with the exception of alchemy, which is discussed below) is governed by the three Universal Rules of magic:

1.   Magic is immediate. This rule means that, while the effects of magic may be lasting (e.g. a fire ignited by a fireball burns even after the magic is gone), magic itself is instantaneous. Thus, there are no lingering spells, and if a magic wielding character wants a magic effect to continue, he must continue to devote himself to the task which created the magic effect. Magic can affect the body, but it cannot affect the heart or the mind.

Example
Bob's Magic theme is Elemental Magic. Bob decides to create a wall of flame to defend him against missile fire. Each combat turn that Bob wants his wall to burn, he must perform the magic task. When Bob devotes his attention to a different task, the wall disappears.

2.   Magic is hard. Generally speaking, achieving a result by magic (with respect to unopposed tasks) is one level harder than achieving that result by mundane means.

Example

Bob decides to break down a door with mighty gout of flame. If someone were physically trying to break the door down, it would be a challenging task and the GM would throw down five challenge dice. Because Bob is using magic, the GM treats it as a difficult task and throws down seven challenge dice to oppose Bob's task.

3. Magic has a price. To call upon magic requires a concentrated, overt effort. For every consecutive turn that a character uses magic beyond the total number of magic icons that he has on his character dice, he adds one hindering die (Null, Null, Null, Blank, Blank, Damage)to his bones. A character may discard one hindering die for ever hour of full rest or every four hours of light activity.

Example
Bob is in a firefight with a squad of goblin archers who are upset with him over their shabby treatment in his book. For five turns, Bob blasts them with withering bolts of flame until only three are left. Not having his crossbow, Bob blasts away again in turn six, slaying a goblin. Because he only has five Magic icons on his character dice, Bob earns a hindering die to add to his bones. Emboldened by his success, Bob blasts away in turn seven. Although the hindering die comes up Null, negating one of Bob's successes, he still succeeds in slaying another goblin. Unfortunately, this is his seventh consecutive use of magic, and the GM gives him another hindering die to add to his bones.
Bob doesn't care and blasts away again in turn eight. This time, both hindering dice come up Damage, and Bob loses two character dice (and two successes). He still wounds the last goblin, but now he is hurt as well and risks incapacitation, especially after the GM hands him his third hindering die.
Where's Ragnar when you need him?

      Magical Themes

   Each character who wields magic must pick a single theme for his magic and define the parameters of that theme. Characters may choose a second theme when they have a magic icon on at least five separate character dice and may choose a third theme when they have a magic icon on at least ten separate character dice. After choosing a Theme, the character must define the Effect of his magic and describe the Limitations of his magic.

Example
Bob has made the Theme of his magic "Elemental Magic" and has defined the Effect of his magic as being "Creating and manipulating the four traditional elements of earth, air, fire and water." Bob describes the Limitation on his magic as being "restricted to elemental manipulation and creation." Bob's friend Father Joe, a roman catholic priest, defines the Theme of his magic as being "Miracles of Faith" and describes the Effect of his magic as being "benefiting the faithful and combating Satan." Father Joe describes the Limitation of his magic as being "restricted to the service of the Lord."

Magic in combat

   Because magic takes time and the Single Task Rule limits characters to a single task in any given turn, using magic in combat is risky. Provided that the character's magic includes an appropriate effect, the character can use his magic in place of either attack or defend successes in combat. Because combat is an opposed task, the Magic is Hard Rule does not apply to combat.

Example
Bob decides to burn two of his goblin rivals with a fireball. Combat ensues and Bob rolls 4 successes (2 Mental successes and two Magic successes). Because Bob is using his fire magic to attack at range, he may treat his successes as missile successes, and Bob elects to apply one of them against the first goblin (who has no defend successes) and three of them against the second goblin (who has one universal success allocated to defense—being NPCs, the goblins had to allocate their dice first). The first goblin takes one damage and loses one of its character dice. Because the goblin was injured by flames, the GM decides to also award the goblin a flaming hindrance die. After subtracting the second goblin's Universal success from Bob's three attack successes, the second goblin takes two damage—because the second goblin only has two character dice, it is incapacitated (or in this case, smoked). Meanwhile, the first goblin rolled one attack success, which Bob (who has no defense successes) cannot block. If Bob had been wearing armor (he's not) the armor could have contributed a defense success or even been discarded as it absorbed the damage. Instead, Bob loses one character die to injury.
Bob next decides to use his elemental magic to form a wall of fire surrounding him to protect him from damage and injure opponents who strike him. The burning goblin elects to attack again (goblins are like that). The goblin rolls one attack success and his flaming die rolls a Blank face. Bob rolls his three remaining bones and gets a Universal Success, a Mental Success and a Magic Success. Bob decides to allocate one of his successes to defense (his shield flares and blocks the goblin's blow) and two to attack. Because the goblin has no way to defend against Bob's successes, his flaming shield fries the goblin to a crisp.

ALCHEMY
Rather than being similar to typical magic, alchemy is more akin to fantastic chemistry. Alchemy can only be worked in an equipped laboratory, and alchemical preparations cost (5 coins x magnitude) and take 30 minutes per level of magnitude to complete. A character can learn one alchemical formula for every Alchemy icon on his bones and must learn all formulae of lower levels of magnitude before moving up to the next higher level of magnitude. There are nine known basic alchemical formulae, three of the first order of magnitude, three of the second order of magnitude and three of the third order of magnitude. A finished alchemical preparation is approximately 8 ounces and is usually kept in a specialized glass vial. A person can only benefit from an alchemical preparation of a given type only one time in every twenty-four hour period.

Known Formulae
Fire unguent (Magnitude 1)   Creates one vial of sticky napalm that gives target of successful hit one flaming impairment die

Antiseptic (Magnitude1)   Creates one vial of topical medicine that adds one medical success to the total when treating wounds

Night eyes (Magnitude1)   Gives the recipient night vision for 4 hours

Healing Draught (Magnitude 2)   Creates healing potion that cures one die of damage

Blade Burn (Magnitude 2)   Successful hit with coated blade adds one average poison impairment die. Lasts for two hits.

Quench (Magnitude 2)   Extinguishes any flame on a successful hit

True Acid (Magnitude 3)   Destroys one non-magic item on a successful hit or does 1 damage per 2 successes as a missile weapon

Poison purge (Magnitude 3)   Removes one poison die

Rejuvenate (Magnitude 3)   When taken orally gives the recipient (including spell casters) the equivalent of 4 hours rest

Please give me any thoughts and impressions you might have.

Thanks. Andy

andy · April 21, 2004, 05:33:22 PM

I have the draft version of BONES 2.0 out. If anyone would like it, please drop me a line.

Andy

taalyn · April 21, 2004, 08:22:47 PM

Heya Andy! You know I want a copy of Bones 2.

Quick comment on Alchemy - seems totally wrong for what you've set up for magic. I find it particularly strange that napalm can only affect a target once in 24 hours. I'd rather see some different mechanic for Alchemy or other semi-permanent magics. Perhaps successes (or even dice with magic icons) have to be set aside until the magic is freed? Or a certain number of successes are required for different effects? Something - I hate limited lists, and the rest of the magic system is so freeing...

Aidan

TheLoom · April 22, 2004, 08:57:23 PM

Comments on first glance through the pdf - more detail later.

I agree with Taalyn, the alchemy system doesn't seem to fit well with the other mechanics you have going on.

The Money system. This also doesn't fit the flavor IMHO. Why not use dice? Wealth dice/faces can be earned on a monthly basis, dice/faces lost on a monthly basis based on desired level of living. Perhaps when you want to purchase something you roll the wealth dice you have. If you meet the successes required for the item, you own it. This would allow opposing dice on the side of the merchant for bartering. If you failed the roll perhaps there is an option to "spend" your wealth dice/faces. Lets say you missed the roll by 2 successes for the purchase. The option may be there to give up two wealth faces to make the deal. You are out a bit of accumulated wealth, but you now own the item.

I personally really like the character development. That, along with the Spiffs allows quite a bit of control and customization, but keeps it abstract.

Question: why do you limit the number of Spiffs for soaking damage? Why not just let the player blow all their Spiffs if they believe the conflict is important enough.

andy · April 23, 2004, 05:03:03 PM

Thanks for the questions--

Alchemy-- I agree that this is not consistent with the rest of the magic system-- I view it as being more akin to a skill with defined results-- I am rethinking it-- maybe Alchemy should just be another magical theme.

Money-- I do admire the Donjon system. Perhaps requiring a roll and weighting the value of the different icons for purpose of determining success (ie. Merchant is x2, Sailor is x1 and Melee is x 1/2 for making a wealth check)--how does that sound?

Spiffs-- I think that the concept of risk is essential to a good (gamist) RPG, and I don't want to give anyone the idea that they can make themselves bulletproof by blowing their wad of spiffs.

andy · May 05, 2004, 11:16:48 AM

Well, I'm just about ready to release BONES the RPG on RPGNow-- I hope to be ready by the beginning of June.

Thanks to all on this Board for your help and critiques. I'll ask for help on my Cold Iron campaign setting next.

Thanks Again.

Andy

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