The Player's Guide to Roleplaying

[M. J. Young]

Reading the posts on this second page has given me some doubt as to whether this really works as a book; and Itse's comments have reinforced that significantly.

It may be that what you guys want to do is start work on an e-zine. It's easily published in PDF, and you can take your various "sections" and "chapters" and turn them into "columns" and "articles".

This would even allow you to include a "basics" segment, a series targeting those who are beginners, without diluting the focus of the later materials. You could still do the history materials, in a section devoted to that.

Of course, if you see this working as a book, more power to you. I suppose it could; I just don't see it yet.

--M. J. Young

[Itse]

I would also like to encourage PDF (or whatnot, internet publication) as a format. Using that, you could really keep it up to date, build it from the ground up and have it easily available. You don't have to worry about comprehensiveness to start with, so you wouldn't have to accept "the best you could get" instead "actually good", which is too often the case.

(This is actually something I've been thinking about for a while, but if I'd do it, I should do it in Finnish. My English is not that strong.)

[Jonathan Walton]

Well, it's possible that it could work something like my development plan for Argonauts.  I'm planning to release the game as a playtest PDF, get feedback from the players, continually update and expand the PDF version, and when I feel like it's as good as it's going to get, send it to a POD printer and make actual print copies.

Still, I don't think that's quite the plan we have in mind.  After all, we could make some POD copies at any point.  That doesn't keep us from updating or expanding the (free!) PDF version at a later point in time.  Since the book now looks to be a handbook of roleplaying techniques, it's going to need to be updated regularly, just because new games and theories are going to come out that require new discussions of new techniques.  After all, once Humble Mythologies and Beneath This Facade hit the ground, I'm hoping to open up a whole new area of possibilities...

[Ben O'Neal]

I, personally, see a problem with any book based on "role-playing" in general. I mean, how many different types of RPG's exist? How many different ways of playing are there? I'd suggest the variance in role-playing is far greater than the variance in computer games, but you know what? I'd put $100 on a bet that a book about "techniques for playing computer games" would be a piece of crap. Perhaps a book on "first-person shooters" might work, but it'd still be biting off more than it can chew, IMHO. Hell, most magazines are crap, and they can at least update themselves monthly. Plus their core material is pretty solid and easily defined. Can the same be said for RPG's?

Take Dragon for example, it needs to deal with a limited scope of RPG types (like AD&D and its ripoffs) or else it would become mush. As it stands, most of it is junk anyways.

Anyways, thats my rant. In conclusion, I'd not be thinking that such a book as proposed in this thread would be worth my paying for. I sure wouldn't buy a book on "how to be a good real-time-strategy player".

[brainwipe]

Anyways, thats my rant. In conclusion, I'd not be thinking that such a book as proposed in this thread would be worth my paying for. I sure wouldn't buy a book on "how to be a good real-time-strategy player".

I think the paradigm suggested here is a good idea and would work very well. There are a huge number of tips and tricks that span any genre. There is also a body of knowledge (called RPG Theory) that fits all games. It can be very helpful in trying to understand why a gaming group has certain problems. As RPG Theory allows everyone to understand the problems, they have a better basis on solving them.

In Computer RPGs, the manner in which a game is played is quite specific for each game. This is not so with Tabletop (PnP) RPGs. You can take out the system and mechanics and view the game purely on the manner in which people interact and what they are looking for in the game.

If I wanted a printed copy of this book, I would certainly pay for it but I think a free PDF that anyone reference in their roleplaying game would be fab.

[ethan_greer]

Ravien,
Certainly, no one expects the work to be definitive. At least, I certainly hope no one expects it. But I think the project has merit simply because of what it attempts to do - create a "what is roleplaying?" text that isn't a pile of shit.

Also, I'd like to point out this thread as food for thought, on the off chance that Jonathan (and whoever else) missed it.  It talks about trust among participants of an RPG, an issue that definitely should be addressed in this proposed work.

[Jody_Butt]

Matthew, your comments actually bring to mind another great chapter (which I might be interested in writing, actually):

In Search of Value
-- 1. Pleasure & Escapism (how we enjoy play because it's fun and exciting)
-- 2. Meaning & Aesthetic Appreciation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially fun, like tragedy or true horror)
-- 3. Knowledge & Experimentation (how we enjoy play that isn't especially successful, since it teaches us things)
-- 4. Creation & Memory (how we enjoy play for its own sake, due to its reflection of ourselves and what we put into it)

That's awesome, John.  You should write this up into an essay, and post it here.  I would like to read your thoughts.  I've been thinking a lot about such things, lately (well, almost all the time, actually).

[daMoose_Neo]

I'm more inclined to agree with the "Newsletter/e-zine" camp.
PC/Console Gaming books were mentioned and agreed- I personally think it stupid to pay $15 for a book that tells you HOW to play the game. I'd rather put gas in my car, buy a 2 liter of Mt. Dew and a bag of Cheetos to eat while I play the game.
On top of that, the books/magazines that sell the best are the ones with maps, walkthroughs, cheats and shortcuts. I'm sure this isn't what you want to do (and it'd be rather hard to have a book that goes "And when the Bartender asks you for the key you tell him "XYZ"").
Part of it is my personal opinion that any playing (video or RP) is more fun when explored by myself/my group. The other part is a newsletter is by far more viable; in each issue, offer colomns/series on introductory role playing, tips for a fun campaign/adventure, review an exciting and innovative new Indie RP, do a "Historical Showcase" or "Creator Showcase" for historical games/events/developers etc. If you want to charge, put a $1/$2 price tag on it or accept donations.

[Jonathan Walton]

That's awesome, John.  You should write this up into an essay, and post it here.  I would like to read your thoughts.  I've been thinking a lot about such things, lately (well, almost all the time, actually).

Awesome, Jody.  I'm glad people are thinking along the same lines here.  In fact, Chris and I have been working on developing the project into full detail, it's just gone behind-the-scenes for a while, until we can get a few issues worked out.  We should be making an announcement soon, though, and trying to get comments on what articles to include in the "Techniques" section and how to structure things.

I've got a basic webpage up here, but nothing's final yet:
http://1001.indie-rpgs.com/handbook/

[Emily Care]

Looks great, you two. Excellent work.

edited to add:
What is your framework for soliciting/accepting contributions?

[Jonathan Walton]

What is your framework for soliciting/accepting contributions?

Well, that'll be part of the announcement, when we make it.  I think we're trying to estimate high and then be pleasantly surpised if things go faster (or not be so discouraged if they take longer).  

...So a month to nail down the Table of Contents in final form, a month or more to get people signed up to write articles, a few months for the articles to happen, a month for inter-author feedback, a month for revisions, a couple months for final editing and layout, and then a release.  So, about a year for the whole project, once we announce it.  This is just my recollection of Chris' outline, based on his background in similar anthology projects, so it's not "official" in any sense.

We're going to try to specifically recruit people for certain pieces (including people who aren't Forge regulars) and then work with interested parties to pair people up with articles that suit them, their background, and their interests.  At least, that's my view of things.

More soon.

[clehrich]

Emily,

My sense of the time-frame and such is more or less as Jonathan posted it.  One point in this sort of thing is that people are often very excited and gung-ho at first, and sign up to do something, then realize that if they can't get it done in a week a whole lot of other things come piling in.  Those who think ahead thus start deciding that maybe they don't want to volunteer to submit a paper; those who don't end up holding up the whole process, producing an unpleasant cycle of guilt and nagging and general unhappiness.  So whatever deadlines are set would be relatively long-term, and absolute.

As Jonathan says, things are currently a bit behind-the-scenes, because some structural issues need to get worked out.  You should expect to hear more of what's doing relatively soon, though.

[clehrich]

General Points

We hope everyone will look at the website and read over the table of contents carefully.  Assume a relatively broad but straightforward sense of the content of each article listed.  Now here's what we ask of you:

1. Are there important, essential articles clearly absent here?
2. Are there articles here that seem especially irrelevant or minor?  Note that the long set (section 2) consists of rather brief notes in most cases, not 25-page articles.  If it all seems irrelevant or pointless, that's fine too, but what really interests us right now is whether there are specific articles that seem trivial.

If you want to make a case about this, for example an argument about why some section or article is well or poorly structured, needs to be changed, etc., please do so here.  But if you simply want to suggest that we add or drop an article, more or less a vote, please send it by PM to me or Jonathan so as not to clutter the Forge by turning a thread into a survey (which is not the intent here).

------------

A Note On Zines

I personally think it stupid to pay $15 for a book that tells you HOW to play the game. I'd rather put gas in my car, buy a 2 liter of Mt. Dew and a bag of Cheetos to eat while I play the game.  On top of that, the books/magazines that sell the best are the ones with maps, walkthroughs, cheats and shortcuts. I'm sure this isn't what you want to do (and it'd be rather hard to have a book that goes "And when the Bartender asks you for the key you tell him "XYZ""). ... Part of it is my personal opinion that any playing (video or RP) is more fun when explored by myself/my group.

Put quite that way, I'd tend to agree with you.  But the argument here is that the sort of discussion that happens on the Forge, especially in the GNS and RPG Theory forums, is worth doing.  Some of the articles will be more general, theoretical, and dealing with broader (and deeper) issues.  Some articles will be quite specific, talking about techniques and such.  But I do not think that cheats and walkthroughs are a reasonable parallel.  If you consider such articles as "No Myth", describing a mode of gamemastering that many have never heard of and some might like to try, the point is not to tell people how to "win" at gamemastering; the point is to describe, clearly and practically, the "what", the "why", and the "how" of this GMing style.  When you go and try it out, the only way it's going to be fun is if your group explores it together and sees how (and if) it works.

As to the question of format, I think this is purely aesthetics.  I have never bought a zine in my life, electronic or otherwise, and I very much doubt I ever will.  I find almost all magazines worthless, because they're filled with unnecessary pictures and with ranting by idiots who don't know what they're talking about.  At the same time, I have huge numbers of books, and subscribe to a lot of peer-reviewed journals.  The idea here is to have what amounts to a peer-reviewed edited volume, in the academic style (though not written in the jargon-laden prose that too often masquerades for learning).  That means a lot of clear prose, with not a lot else.  A lot of content for your RPG buck, is the thought.

Here's the idea: You pick up a solid trade paperback volume with an unusually non-lurid cover, find that almost all of it is prose, and that it covers a huge range of material.  Many authors are people you have heard of; some are not, but the author list indicates that they know something about what they speak of.  You decide to dip in, and read a single article.  You find that it is surprisingly lucid, it explains something in a way you'd never quite thought of before, and that there is a kind of professionalism that you don't see a lot of in RPG's.  There are references to some games you have heard of, some you have played, and some you have never heard of at all.  All this provokes you to read another article.  And you find the same thing.  In the back, you find a clear and useful index, a bibliography of games and where you can get them, and a bunch of other suggestions about where to go to follow up on particular ideas, games, and directions.  And, with luck, you find yourself wishing that more RPG support material were this clear and waste-free.

That's my way of looking at it, anyway.

[Eero Tuovinen]

1. Are there important, essential articles clearly absent here?

I'd actually prefer seeing a fifth partition, "Current Scene". It'd be a good place to introduce tabletop, larping, computer based and other forms of play, as well as the most important games, firms, societies, web-pages and everything else one should know to navigate the whole of the scene. It would also serve to ground the theory and conceptual parts with crossreferenced play examples and such. It's all well and good to talk about different techniques, but isn't it important to demonstrate them too?

I'd probably include an article about the "Goals of Play". This'd be a look at the most common visions of what roleplaying really should and could be. You know, the reason we play. There's an astounding amount of radically different dreams about this, and a cross-section could be a strong demonstration of the possibilities for achievement as well as possibilities for conflict. These goals range from psychological and pedagogical through political and personal to general, strong moments we all cherish when they occur. The payoff, as it were, but there's a wondrous amount of differences there as well, for the payoff can be very different for different people. Could be that the "Why Do We Roleplay" is exactly this article, but better make sure.

I note that there's no specific article about GM-less play. Is this a part of some other topic?

Otherwise the contents seem pretty comprehensive. I'd probably think of something if it was my project, but that would happen probably later, when the writing had started and the general shape of the work started to coalesce more firmly in my mind. I'd suggest you prepare for that too, and not be averse to adding things later if holes appear. I'd be surprised if the theory and techniques wouldn't generate new articles.

2. Are there articles here that seem especially irrelevant or minor?  Note that the long set (section 2) consists of rather brief notes in most cases, not 25-page articles.  If it all seems irrelevant or pointless, that's fine too, but what really interests us right now is whether there are specific articles that seem trivial.

I'd put all the Sensitive issues into one article, as they really are all just questions of social communication and group preference. They all are resolved in the same way, so there's not much that can be said about one that doesn't apply to another. Might be my godless Europeanism speaking, though.

Otherwise the contents look good. I'm especially impressed by the list of techniques.

I'd be happy to write articleysies or help to organize writing the book, provided the timeframe of work is suitable for my own timetable and other conditions are equiably and firmly established. If you think my English passable, that is.

[komradebob]

Y'know, when I first saw this thread started, I had serious doubts about the project, and bluntly, whether or not I would consider dropping money on the final product.

Having read the outline, I guess I'm pretty well convinced of its goodness.

It seems like you guys are shooting for a really solid distallation of various Forge discussions. Thank god. There are really great discussions at this site, but I for one, really would love to have a book that summed them up.

Good luck. I hate to wait a year to see this product (delayed gratification is not my strong suit!).

Quick question:
Will any of the articles make a preliminary appearance on the Forge? I know that the publishing forum threads have debated the wisdom of freely available games that are later published as a sold product. Still, I'd be interested in seeing both the work in progress and buying the final hardcopy.

Of course, I was one of those people that, in my AD&D days, thought that the Best of Dragon special issues were essential to own, even when I already owned the original issues ...

Robert

edit:
Afterthought:
When the book is a reality, you might want to see if you can get it sold in the reference section of BigBookstores, in the same area where you find guides to writing, and specifically writing genre fiction. This is an area that you might not have considered for distribution. Plus, I sorta hope that this book showing up in said area might suck new blood into the hobby...