[Sorcerer] Damage Penalties in Combat

[Bill Cook]

Just reading through Sorcerer a bit.  Some questions:

[*]Where a character is attacked but has not yet acted, if he opts to suck up the attack, rolling one die in defense, is that die allocated from his Stamina pool or is it simply a base?  Is the base/allocation subject to damage penalties as with score rolls?
[*]Are damage penalties applied at turn's end or round's end?  Would next action penalties carry past the current round?
[*]If a character has damage penalties not yet greater than his Stamina, can he still make a Will roll to use dice lost to penalties?
[*]Does a wounded player roll Will to master himself before or after he announces his intended action for the next round?
[*]Consider:

    Characters A and B have a fist fight.  They both have Stamina 3.

    Both swing.
    A: 2, 4, 6.  B: 5, 5, 5.
    A's Turn.
    B aborts and defends with 2, 2, 3.
    Apply 2 victories for next (2) and lasting (1) penalties.

    A swings.  B runs.
    A: 6, 6, 1.  B: 3 - 2 - 1 = no defense.  Gaah!

Should B have a base defense of one die?  Should B make a Will roll to defeat damage penalties or must he first accept another blow to qualify?

It seems like a death spiral.
[/list:u]

Edited to put the game title in the subject.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Bill,

Let me preface this by referring you to discussions begun by Jesse Burneko (jburneko) in this forum. Very valuable.

Where a character is attacked but has not yet acted, if he opts to suck up the attack, rolling one die in defense, is that die allocated from his Stamina pool or is it simply a base? Is the base/allocation subject to damage penalties as with score rolls?

It's a base, not an allocation. Technically, Sorcerer dice are a "pool" only because they are vary in number of dice, but not in the sense of allocating from a pool.

And yes, that single die is subject to damage and other penalties.

Are damage penalties applied at turn's end or round's end? Would next action penalties carry past the current round?

Penalties swing into at the character's very next roll. That may occur in this round, or it may occur in the next round; that varies depending on when the damage hit. But as long as you say, "very next roll," it's easy.

If a character has damage penalties not yet greater than his Stamina, can he still make a Will roll to use dice lost to penalties?

No. The Will roll is only usable if you've already hit bottom.

Does a wounded player roll Will to master himself before or after he announces his intended action for the next round?

The Will roll and the action roll are considered the action. So during the announcement phase, you would say, "I'm going to master myself and then hit the sucker." But you don't roll anything until the time comes; when the announcement phase is fully over.

Consider:

Characters A and B have a fist fight. They both have Stamina 3.

Both swing.
A: 2, 4, 6. B: 5, 5, 5.
A's Turn.
B aborts and defends with 2, 2, 3.
Apply 2 victories for next (2) and lasting (1) penalties.

A swings. B runs.
A: 6, 6, 1. B: 3 - 2 - 1 = no defense. Gaah!

Should B have a base defense of one die? Should B make a Will roll to defeat damage penalties or must he first accept another blow to qualify?

I see your conundrum. The issue is solved like this. Before your sentence "A swings, B runs," let's do a quick check! According to the rules, B is momentarily incapacitated by pain - his current penalties outweigh his Stamina. (Those three 6's represent Therefore "B runs" is not an option for B's player.

So let's look at the announcements in that light. "A swings. B struggles to master himself and defend." Unless B does this, he will only have one die to defend, which represents "bad luck for A" more than it represents any kind of feeble defense he could muster (i.e. none, basically).

Good. A rolls Stamina, B rolls Will.

1. If the Will roll has the high die, and if it succeeds against the dice representing the Stamina B wants to use, then A's roll will now be opposed by a new roll, based on B's new Stamina dice.

2. But if the Will roll's high die is lower than A's roll's high die, then B is screwed. He has one die of defense against A's attack, and that's all.

There is no death spiral, though, because the Will roll was not penalized by the damage.

Best,
Ron

[Bill Cook]

. . (Those three 6's represent . . [lost transmission] . . Therefore "B runs" is not an option for B's player.

Didn't quite get that.  Please re-post.

Relieved to hear you say the Will roll and the announced action are one event.  The rest of your explanation I find troubling.

Accepting the announcement, "A swings, B masters to defend," it would seem more intuitive to me to oppose A's Stamina roll with B's mastered Stamina.  It seems confusing to allow B's roll process to be permeable.

I'm getting a stronger sense of the one die base defense.  What conditions delineate a one die defense from no defense?

I did read a couple of the jburneko threads.  (i.e. [Sorcerer] More On Complex Conflict and Sorcerer combat.)  I think I'm clear on how announcement gets fixed.  My concerns center more around timing and application of damage/effects.  And Sorcerer's quirky defense tag.

(Just to give you a window into my thinking, Fast Effects in M:TG heavily influence my understanding.)

It sounds like Sorcerer tags each turn with resolution and effects apply in a literal "next," regardless of time containers (i.e. turns, rounds).

************

Still on topic, two more questions:

[*]What's the difference between the penalty effects at levels of > Stamina and > 2x Stamina?  Can a sorcerer still give commands at > Stamina penalties?
[*]At what threshold do penalties indicate character death?
[/list:u]

I have some more questions on demon abilities, but I'll post them in a different thread after they're all compiled.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Bill,

(Those three 6's represent Therefore "B runs" is not an option for B's player.

Ignore everything before the "Therefore."

Accepting the announcement, "A swings, B masters to defend," it would seem more intuitive to me to oppose A's Stamina roll with B's mastered Stamina. It seems confusing to allow B's roll process to be permeable.

The issue here is that none of the basic rolls (associated with announced actions) are opposed to one another. These rolls are opposed by defensive rolls, which haven't happened yet (in real time).

So the whole Will-mastery/self roll is a means of establishing B's Stamina for purposes of this exchange.

Now! You are absolutely correct that it can be puzzling in terms of sequence (although the system will fly if you let it, according to my description in the above post). In some cases, though, the mastery-of-self roll is carried out prior to the round, if the conflict is not especially complex.

So it'll be hard to help if we stay abstract, and even an "A fights B" example is abstract compared to the highly character-charged, situation-charged imaginative circumstances of actual play.

What conditions delineate a one die defense from no defense?

There's really no such thing as rolling against "no defense." If there's truly no defense, then the only constraint on the announced action is the internal physics of the game-world as represented by the GM. There's no roll.

But that requires me to explain, too, that rolling in Sorcerer is about conflict, not "can I or can't I do this" in terms of in-game physics ...

So (a) check if there's a conflict, and if so, roll. One die might be the only defense. (b) If there's no conflict, and only then, check with in-game physics as determined by the GM.

You will very often find that this distinction (which is not represented by most RPG rules at all) is incredibly easy to make during play. And again, as long as there's a conflict, there will be rolled at least one oppositional die.

"Conflict" in this sense does not mean either (a) disagreements among the real people of any kind, nor (b) conflict-of-interest among the characters, e.g. the helpless guy "wouldn't want to die." It means conflict like you would associate with Lit 101 classes.

By that, I mean, "Alternate outcomes carry different thematic messages." When that's the case, then you have a conflict.

What's the difference between the penalty effects at levels of > Stamina and > 2x Stamina?

That's a nice cutoff, if you need it, between "one last gasp" actions and "forget it, you're done" no-actions. Either one can be overridden by a Will roll, true, but the lesser level of damage might be prone to more customizing during moments of play.

It strikes me that we should distinguish between these three things:

1. Total penalties: current temporary ones plus the lasting ones. Think of this as what the damage feels like to the character at that moment.

2. Total lasting penalties during a conflict. Think of this as how the damage looks to the audience.

3. The final lasting penalties that persist after a conflict is over, which are half of #2. Think of this as the damage the character must cope with "really," in later scenes.

So "faces over twice Stamina in damage penalties" has to be assessed according to whether it's 1, 2, or 3.

Can a sorcerer still give commands at > Stamina penalties?

Giving a command is an action, and subject to the same rules as any other action.

At what threshold do penalties indicate character death?

Over twice Stamina in lasting penalties at the #3 category, above, is the red zone. "Needs intensive care" is the phrase in the book, and Sorcerer can be tweaked to the cruel end, which says, "or you die," or to the softer end, which permits a certain amount of scene-framing to establish that the character gets that care (as is done in most movies and books).

Best,
Ron

[Bill Cook]

I take your point about literary conflict.  And the limits of abstraction.  Hopefully, I will get to play a Sorcerer campaign in the near term and apply the system.

To continue my example, B cannot act or roll Will to master.  But B will get a base die of one for defense.  Then if A kicks B in the stomach as B lays there, for two victiories, the next round, B may roll his Will of three against up to Stamina dice to use that many.  B rolls 1, 6 against 2, 4 and gets two dice back.  Now B uses them to grab A's leg and bite his calf.

The total penalty of six has already been applied to B's Stamina of three to bring it to zero or less.  So it is not again applied to B's mastered Stamina, right?

Also, margin of victory doesn't determine mastery of score, does it?

(Just making sure.  I know I'll get asked.)

********

I grasp the distinction between the three states of penalties.  This is my take-home understanding of total penalty effects:

Stamina or less = in pain; no mastery aspect.
> Stamina        = may master; may not otherwise act.
> 2x Stamina    = dead.

********

(I think there's a typo in the running example on pages 105-8.  Brandon's defense rolls are too good to allow even one victory.  And you first say Thug A had one then two then one victory against Brandon.  You probably already know about this.)

********

Important question: does application of penalties reduce the dice rolled to determine turn order?  If so, on what basis?  If a new roll is required, does the result affect that character's place in the turn queue?

e.g. (All scores are 3.  It's a fist fight.)

      Announce: A attacks X.  B attacks Y.  X attacks B.  Y runs away.
      Roll: A = 3, 4, 6; B = 2, 5, 5; X = 1, 1, 6; Y = 2, 3, 4.
      A's turn: X sucks up the attack with a base roll of 6.
      X's turn: B sucks up the attack with a base roll of 4.

      .. and from here down I make assumptions ..

      (Continuing with X's turn ..) B logs 1 penalty for next and 1
      for lasting.
      B's turn: B rolls Stamina - Total Penalties = 1 die for a 4.  Y sucks up the attack with a base of 4.
      Y's turn: The GM opposes Y's roll with 2 dice for 1, 3.  Y escapes.
 
I'm working on an expanded combat round sequence, but it will have to wait for answers to the above.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Bill,

To continue my example, B cannot act or roll Will to master. But B will get a base die of one for defense.

Um, wait. B does have an opportunity to master himself. Did we miscommunicate about that somehow?

Then if A kicks B in the stomach as B lays there, for two victiories, the next round, B may roll his Will of three against up to Stamina dice to use that many. B rolls 1, 6 against 2, 4 and gets two dice back. Now B uses them to grab A's leg and bite his calf.

Something's funny about the way you're stating this, and I'm not sure whether it's due to a basic error that needs to be corrected, or just the medium of the internet. But pending that, yes, it looks as if you have it.

The total penalty of six has already been applied to B's Stamina of three to bring it to zero or less. So it is not again applied to B's mastered Stamina, right?

That's right. The "mastered Stamina" roll is not penalized. It's best considered the expression of the character's untrammelled Will.

Also, margin of victory doesn't determine mastery of score, does it?

You're correct, it does not. If you roll Will against (say) three dice of Stamina and succeed with one victory, you get all three Stamina dice to use. But it's conceivable that the GM might allow that single victory as a bonus ...  

[/quote]I grasp the distinction between the three states of penalties. This is my take-home understanding of total penalty effects:

Stamina or less = in pain; no mastery aspect.
> Stamina = may master; may not otherwise act.
> 2x Stamina = dead. [/quote]

Um, no, that's not right, and if you use that, you'll have a whole bevy of dead characters in the first fight. That's why I provided that list in the above post. You're talking about total penalties, yes? Lasting + temporary, during a fight? That total cannot kill a character. Not only do the temporary penalties vanish, but so does half the lasting penalty. Death only results if the remaining lasting damage exceeds twice the character's Stamina.

(I think there's a typo in the running example on pages 105-8. Brandon's defense rolls are too good to allow even one victory. And you first say Thug A had one then two then one victory against Brandon. You probably already know about this.)

I'm pretty sure not, as that example got thrashed through very carefully, but I'll check. I'll tell ya, after eight years of coping with it, I'm heartily sick of Brandon and Fragg at this point, but I'll check. See the Errata page at the website too, just in case.

Important question: does application of penalties reduce the dice rolled to determine turn order? If so, on what basis? If a new roll is required, does the result affect that character's place in the turn queue?

I think we're still dealing with some misunderstandings about sequence, based on my reading of your example below. The dice "rolled to determine turn order" are the very same dice used to carry out the announced actions. There is no "turn order roll" carried out separately. I'm not at all sure what you mean by "on what basis?," or the "new roll" that might be required.

But let's go through the example before dealing with that.

e.g. (All scores are 3. It's a fist fight.)

Announce: A attacks X. B attacks Y. X attacks B. Y runs away.
Roll: A = 3, 4, 6; B = 2, 5, 5; X = 1, 1, 6; Y = 2, 3, 4.
A's turn: X sucks up the attack with a base roll of 6.
X's turn: B sucks up the attack with a base roll of 4.

OK, we're off in left field already. I don't know what you mean by "base roll" for the defensive suck-ups, because you seem to be applying the values from the above four rolls, in X and B's cases, as defenses. This is not correct. I'll pick it up from after your rolled values.

A goes first. X has a choice: abort his attack on B and defend vs. A with three dice, or roll a new single die to defend against A, preserving his attack on B. Let's say he aborts (if this game is using d6's, he should; A has a good roll). He gets two 6's and some other value! Cool, he defends against A successfully, but his attack on B is now gone, evaporated.

That means we skip to B, who is attacking Y. Y is an interesting character in this example, as he initially should have rolled five dice (+2 for full defensive action; see below). For purposes of this example, let's say he did, but both of those dice came up with a 1 (values: 2, 3, 4, 1, 1). Y has a choice: abort his "run away" roll, to defend against B's attack with three dice; or (for some reason) roll only one die to defend and preserve the "run away" with its current values.

.. and from here down I make assumptions ..

(Continuing with X's turn ..) B logs 1 penalty for next and 1 for lasting.
B's turn: B rolls Stamina - Total Penalties = 1 die for a 4. Y sucks up the attack with a base of 4.

Y's turn: The GM opposes Y's roll with 2 dice for 1, 3. Y escapes.

This is all obsolete because of the points made above. In addition, I urge you to consider that Y's roll to run away is itself a "full defense" declared against B in the free-announcement phase, not a "task" that is opposed by a GM-difficulty roll at all.

Hope that helps. I'm wondering whether we need to start from the beginning, but let me know what you think.

Best,
Ron

[Bill Cook]

You said

Before your sentence "A swings, B runs," let's do a quick check!  According to the rules, B is momentarily incapacitated by pain - his current penalties outweigh his Stamina .. [omitted fragment] .. Therefore "B runs" is not an option for B's player.

Which I just now understand better.  By "quick check," you mean "compare total penalties to Stamina."  I thought you meant "roll mastered Stamina to attempt escape."  So B may not announce, pure and simple.  Unless he masters himself.  And he can't, because his total penalties are equal to his Stamina, not greater than.

Um, wait. B does have an opportunity to master himself.

I don't see how.

The point I was trying to illustrate is that where total penalties equal Stamina, the character's screwed.  He's out of score dice and he doesn't yet qualify to master.  It'd be simple to fix: change your cut-offs to < Stamina, >= Stamina and >= 2x Stamina.

You're talking about total penalties, yes? Lasting + temporary, during a fight?

Yes, definitely.

That total cannot kill a character. Not only do the temporary penalties vanish, but so does half the lasting penalty. Death only results if the remaining lasting damage exceeds twice the character's Stamina.

So in Sorcerer, a character can't die during combat.  You have to wait 'til combat's over, halve the lasting penalties and check if they're > 2x Stamina.  I accept that.  This returns me to the difference between total penalties > Stamina and > 2x Stamina during combat.  You said

That's a nice cutoff, if you need it, between "one last gasp" actions and "forget it, you're done" no-actions. Either one can be overridden by a Will roll, true, but the lesser level of damage might be prone to more customizing during moments of play.

Ok.  So, at > Stamina, at GM's discretion, a character could do one last thing; otherwise, he needs to master.  And you're saying even at > 2x Stamina, you can still master, but I think that's just wrong. On p. 108, it reads, "As long as the sorcerer is not carrying penalties greater than twice his or her Stamina, this attempt may be made."

In addition, I urge you to consider that Y's roll to run away is itself a "full defense" declared against B in the free-announcement phase, not a "task" that is opposed by a GM-difficulty roll at all.

Yea!  This is something new to my understanding.  The action of defense may carry an effect, i.e. escape.  I like this better.

***********

I checked the errata but didn't find what I was talking about.  Sorry to rub an eight-year bedsore.  The example is still charming to new eyes.

***********

The dice "rolled to determine turn order" are the very same dice used to carry out the announced actions. There is no "turn order roll" carried out separately. I'm not at all sure what you mean by "on what basis?," or the "new roll" that might be required.

Surely.  Understood.  What I meant was: if application of penalties reduce score dice, seeing as how they've already been rolled, how do you determine which dice no longer count towards the announced action?  Alternatively, you may interpret that incurring damage requires you to re-roll score dice.  If so, does that result reposition your turn in the remaining order, or does the initial roll maintain its determination for that purpose?

I don't know what you mean by "base roll" for the defensive suck-ups, because you seem to be applying the values from the above four rolls, in X and B's cases, as defenses. This is not correct.

Insert "a new single die roll."  Not at all.  I use the four roll values to (1) determine turn order and (2) as attack rolls, only.

***********

By having X abort to defend, he never gets to attack B, and the whole point of the example was to illustrate the conundrum of penalty application where no action has been taken.  That's the last piece.

I guess this post does start some things over, but I feel I'm making gains.

Edited to change character letters.
Edited 2x to massively change my first point.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Bill,

Time is short, so I'll answer stuff in your post more completely later, but this seems to be the important one:

What I meant was: if application of penalties reduce score dice, seeing as how they've already been rolled, how do you determine which dice no longer count towards the announced action? Alternatively, you may interpret that incurring damage requires you to re-roll score dice. If so, does that result reposition your turn in the remaining order, or does the initial roll maintain its determination for that purpose?

Easy as pie. Leave the dice on the table; do not change them. Then have the opponent use the new dice (damage penalties) as bonus dice to his existing roll. Just roll'em and consider them added to the opponent's dice, which are sitting there too.

That's the "currency" thing in action.

More later, as promised.

Best,
Ron

[Bill Cook]

Well, that's just some brilliant economy.  I totally get it.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

The point I was trying to illustrate is that where total penalties equal Stamina, the character's screwed. He's out of score dice and he doesn't yet qualify to master. It'd be simple to fix: change your cut-offs to < Stamina, >= Stamina and >= 2x Stamina.

Nope, that's too nice. You gotta go under in Sorcerer. The Stamina 3 guy with three penalties is indeed screwed, except that he does indeed get the single die.

And you're saying even at > 2x Stamina, you can still master, but I think that's just wrong. On p. 108, it reads, "As long as the sorcerer is not carrying penalties greater than twice his or her Stamina, this attempt may be made."

You're right about that. Demon Cops relaxes that rule (or it should; can't remember if I put it into the text), so I was probably thinking about that.

Yikes! More time crunch. More later.

Best,
Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Bill,

I checked out the combat example last night, and it is fully correct in terms of Brandon's damage and penalties. Here's why.

Brandon takes a one-victory hit of Fists damage. That means he incurs one temporary penalty and one lasting penalty (see the damage table), for a total of two penalties for his next action.

Later in the fight, the temporary penalty has gone away (when he took the action), and he now is still carrying only the lasting penalty.

Now - the one thing I left out of the example, on purpose, was that Fragg took a hit from a foe and swung on to attack someone. The demon should have been penalized one die due to damage, and (since the rolls were already on the table) that penalty should have been applied as a bonus to his foe's defensive roll, which, in the text, it isn't.

Jonathan Tweet has since informed me that leaving out that detail was hideously confusing and destructive to the text of the game, so you can consider me sufficiently chastised on that one.

Questions, concerns, comments?

Best,
Ron

[Bill Cook]

Later in the fight, the temporary penalty has gone away (when he took the action), and he now is still carrying only the lasting penalty.

Oh, God.  You're right.  I keep blinking on that "next goes away" bit.

BTW, here's my expanded combat round procedure:

[list=1]
[*]Announce.
[*]With total penalties above Stamina up to 2x Stamina, master score dice.  Failure aborts announced action.
[*]Roll attacks.
[*]Traverse turns by order of attack roll.
    [list=a]
    [*]Roll defense.
        [list=1]
        [*]Determine base for matching dice.
           

[*]Already acted.  Use Stamina.
            [*]Not yet acted.
                [list=a]
                [*]Abort.  Use Stamina.
                [*]Persist.  Use one obstacle die.
                [/list:u]
        [*]Add attacker's penalties incurred this round as bonus dice.    
            [/list:o]
    [*]Tally penalties incurred as damage.
        [/list:o]
    [/list:o]
[/list:o]

I had a couple of other questions, still on topic.

[*]Can non-sorcerers (esp. demons) master for score dice?
[*]Is it an acceptable convention that a demon may announce in response to a sorcerer's command within the same round?  (One could argue that a command has to succeed in the previous round.)
[/list:u]

Thx.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Bill,

Can non-sorcerers (esp. demons) master for score dice?

Absolutely not. Sorcerers only.

Is it an acceptable convention that a demon may announce in response to a sorcerer's command within the same round? (One could argue that a command has to succeed in the previous round.)

Nope. The command is an action. The demon cannot say "When the command hits, I do whatever it says." It can announce, "I wait to be commanded." That automatically puts it in the [+2 for defense] category and guarantees that it does nothing this particular round.

Best,
Ron