a Forge greater than the sum of its parts

[hardcoremoose]

Ralph,

Well, you know, I'd pop in every now and then and say something relevant in the Sorcerer forum.  But you know, if you're me and you're not playing, finding stuff to post about is hard.  

There'll be a time and a place for me talk about my gaming woes, if that's what they are, but this isn't that time or place.  This thread is really just my impassioned, frustrated plea to The Forgers to find time for more and varied play (and if that play is happening, then please, post about it).  I hope to be returning to those ranks soon.

Thanks,
Scott

[Ben Lehman]

I have a lot to talk about in this thread, but for this post, I'll restrict it to one topic: posting about fun and successful play, and why it receives less discussion.

You know something? I don't think that's a problem, for the goals of the Forge and for (in my view) healthy-minded people. A brief discussion with a few people, in such a case, has a huge impact in terms of readership. It's inspiring. It generates sales. It helps people in their games in the long term, affecting them perhaps even under their own perceptual radar. It provides an archive for people to refer to when helping someone who is having problems.

BL>  Okay, this is all good.

The thing is, and you have to understand this is coming from someone who has an enormous amount of respect for this forum (perhaps too much), that I cannot, in an online mode, tell the difference between "Okay, end of conversation" silence and "awkward, oh my god he's got it wrong again" silence.

And, because most of my gaming *is* 3E, or LARPing, or IRC play, or something else which is a bit odd and doesn't fit in here, I think "oh, this must be something that no one wants to hear about" or "I must be talking about the wrong things (need more focus on the players, or something)."  Is this a flamingly irrational response?  Yes.  Does this change the fact that it happens, anyway?  No.

Now, I can look at these complaints and say "yeah, that's a problem, uh-huh."  This might be a useful response.  But I am also trying to find something concrete that people can *do* about these problems, and my suggestion is this:

Respond to Actual Play threads.

In my understanding, the Forge posting policies do not prohibit "low-content" posts if they are supportive.  So if you look over an Actual Play thread and go, "hey, that sounds cool," just post it.  Is this shameless pandering to the ego of the initial poster?  Probably.  But fuck it.  Shameless pandering works.

Actual Play threads don't need to be 10 pages long.  But I see a lot of 0 posts and 1 post threads, and that makes it look like everyone is ignoring the forum, so less people post.  Vicious circle.  Let's break it.

yrs--
--Ben

[Jack Aidley]

I have to admit I post more problem games, than successful ones, in Actual Play. I find writing in Actual Play difficult, and I find that I get little response to 'this was fun' posts - yes, I know in principle that posting isn't about getting responses but it often feels that way.

Going back to the OP for a moment, and I say this emphatically, without the Forge there would be no Great Ork Gods. Instead there would be an idea kicked around in my head and, maybe, one day the stillborn version first posted would have struggled half-blind and deformed into actual play.

To me, at least, a forum capable of making that much difference to a game has shown its mettle.

[Mike Holmes]

Moose, this is what I see. You're in some sort of gaming funk. You once had The Forge get you out of a similar gaming funk. Now that it's not doing that for you, something must be wrong with The Forge.

I think that it's just you and you're group. What I think is happening is that your expectation of novelty has increased from game to game. That is a marginal increase of novelty of X before doesn't cut it anymore. The next game needs to be more novel than the previous (X+1) for you to be satisfied.

Well, that's just unsustainable. Indeed, I see no "stagnation" or any of what you point to. There's more posting going on than ever. I'm a statistician, and I can tell you, empirically, that more is happening now than used to happen. Now, you can say that it's all crap, but the people posting don't think so. I and others who appreciate it don't think so.

So, again, it's just not meeting your ever increasing standards.

I'm not for the status quo. I'm for pointing out just how damn marvellous this place is, as is. Again, if you think it needs to be better, then I'm with you on that - I'm just doing everything I can right now, and so I can't see who it is that you're calling out.

All I see is someone who wants more from The Forge, and is doing less now than ever. I find it hypocritical to say that the quality of a site is decreasing, when it's precisely the absence of people like you and you're group that must be the most important contributing factor, should it be in any way true. To be clear, I think the Forge is just fine the way it is - but if there's been "stagnation" its because Scott Knipe doesn't post any more.

You don't get to stand on the sidelines of a community and say that you will only be a part of it if it improves while doing nothing yourself to improve it. The Forge doesn't need cheerleaders, it needs participants.

I often declare that exercising is difficult for me because I'm fat. At least I understand the irony of the statement, and I know what the solution is to my problem. It can only start with me. Apollogies if this sounds at all scathing, but, again, who is it that's being accused here? Who isn't doing enough? Who is responsible for the supposed "stagnation?" I can only account for myself.  

Mike

[Christopher Weeks]

You don't get to stand on the sidelines of a community and say that you will only be a part of it if it improves while doing nothing yourself to improve it. The Forge doesn't need cheerleaders, it needs participants.

Two things:  I don't think that's what he's saying.  And, to whatever extent this place is a community, the amount you give isn't always going to be exactly equal to the amount you take.

He said that he can't be a part of it, not that he won't.  You might not buy it, but give him credit for believing it.  I think it's an important difference.

In a real community, people give what they can, when they can.  That process is independent of what they take and when.  The thriving communities, over time, have more given than taken, but there are always individuals who for a while or forever take more than they can give.  Communities sustain them.  A commonly cited problem for startup intentional communities is having too many of these anchors sucking the vitality out of the group, but that's not happening in this case.  Is it?  And it sounds like Scott has been a giver in the past, so he's in flux, not an anchor.  I've been reading about community start-up projects for the last year and this is one of the things they often discuss.

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

A commonly cited problem for startup intentional communities is having too many of these anchors sucking the vitality out of the group, but that's not happening in this case.  Is it?  And it sounds like Scott has been a giver in the past, so he's in flux, not an anchor.  I've been reading about community start-up projects for the last year and this is one of the things they often discuss.

This is, and has been my point. Things are just fine. Scott not participating, while lamentable, hasn't damaged The Forge in a substantive way. It does mean that if he wants the "improvements" that he wants to see, changes in the status quo, that he'll have to lead the way. Because the rest of us are satisfied.

It all comes down to who's right about whether The Forge is worse or not than it used to be. All I'm saying is that I give more credence to we who are supporting it than to those who are not.

Mike

[Dav]

Mikey penned forth the following thoughts (it may, in fact be only one thought... but, y'know creative license and all):
"It all comes down to who's right about whether The Forge is worse or not than it used to be. All I'm saying is that I give more credence to we who are supporting it than to those who are not."

Right then.  I support the Forge quite vocally in any gaming or RPG interest site that I am solicited or participating in.  Take note of my recent interview (interrogation) at Flamesrising.com

Now, then... my current hang-ups are polyfold, and let us set aside the White Wolf and d20 absurdity that may or may not be infesting the Forge (it is).  You were saying that innovation follows something along the lines of a Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns.  True, I would suppose.  But, much similar to X-Men's explanation of evolution, every so often, it jumps.  And, when the Forge was happily churning along in 2001, and 2002, things were peachy with jumpiness.  I think many became disillusioned when that fit and burst of creativity leveled to an even keel.  I know I was.

When the Forge began, it seemed a haven for the development and advocacy of indie gaming.  It wanted to push RPG design to the edge, and "legitimize" the indie industry.  That seemed to be the Mission Statement of the Forge.

Ummm.... we succeeded.

My question, then, is not so much, can that be done (we answered that question... and damned well, and Moose and yourself, Mr. Holmes, were quite instrumental in that answering)... my question is: what now?  A community to share ideas about indie gaming is fine... but Actual Play posts about White Wolf and D&D are not in any way indie.  Analyzing GNS using a lens of d20 resolves and answers nothing that hasn't been beaten with a dead horse, by dead horses, on dead horses.  How-to posts on what to do to "start your RPG business" are old hat... as are "does .pdf publishing really work?"

My greatest fear of the Forge was that it would find a rut and stick in the groove.  It seems as though it may be doing that.  Rather than asking new questions and finding new avenues to explore, it seems an increasing flood of new people asking the same questions.  Rather than answer them, I would suggest searching old topics.

Don't get me wrong, helping new people to the community and game design is a great thing... but when many of the topics in the Indie Game Design Forum fall under Fantasy Heartbreakers (and, worse still, people are saying "yeah, it's a heartbreaker, but I want to do it"), I have to wonder if maybe the time has come for the ideas to graduate.  

It's that whole problem of: what happens when the small fry becomes the big guy?  Are we still indie-punk, or have we organized, compartmentalized, and laid down so many guidelines, rules, and structures that we have effectively just made an alternate path to the same d20-laden valhalla?

What is my answer to this dilemma?  I don't have one... yet... but oh, boy, will I.  The Forge needs to become something more than what it is... effectively, more than the sum of its parts (apropos to the topic).  When FanPro and Apophis feel like they are doing more indie-punk stuff than the Forge... I become concerned.  

GenCon '04, baby... I'll have an answer for you then.  If you get to it before me, let me know.

Dav

[Mike Holmes]

Victims of our own success? I'd buy that.

But you'll have to understand that most of us are going to be followers rather than leaders in "the next step" - that's always true. Only the discontented can be rebels. So, they'll have to pardon me if I get on with my ho-hum existence.

I'll be there to follow if/when you come up with something new. Just don't expect me to come up with it. But, then, I'm sure that you understand that implicitly, dav.

Dav and I have this special relationship where he constantly marvels at how dull I am. Makes me feel all special inside. ;-)

Mike

[KingstonC]

As a VERY new member of the forge community, here is my perspective.

1) The forge exists as a home for indie role playing game design, for game designers to talk to other game designers about game design, and to talk about how those games work in actual play. This is the forge's stated reason for existing.

2) The forge also exists as a place for mature gamers who can speak about their hobby with intelligence, to speak about their hobby with other like minded individuals. This is not the Forge's stated reason for existing, but it is why many of us are here.

Sometimes goal #2 can suck all the air out of the room, leaving goal #1 gasping for breath.

[JamesSterrett]

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10001

Can it be that some read that thread and aren't inspired to Go Play Now!?  :)

[Emily Care]

Hey Scott,

Thanks for airing your views.  I like your vision for breaking the plateau. Guidelines for actual play sounds like a good idea.  Point taken that actual play and indie games are the real ground of what we're doing here.  And I feel inspired by what you've said to come out into the light more about the thoughts I've been having about what new ground design could cover, continue posting about my actual play experiences (hey, Vincent's doing his part for our play group as I write), and share more of my game development.  Thanks for the reminder to do all that.

Hope you get what you need, and that this can keep being a place to inspire you, and us all.

--Emily Care

[montag]

I'd just like to sneak in a quit thought before closing time:
Actual Play is the only forum were the community wants something from the individual member.
GNS is pretty collaborative IMO, RPG-theory as well, though in both cases I'd say the poster wants feedback from the community, wants to argue. Indie-Design is mostly people looking for help, ideas, comments etc.
Actual Play is different. Rules questions can be asked on the specific forum (if it's a Forge game), there's little chance to show off one's cleverness (in contrast to e.g. GNS), social reinforcement is lower on average, it requires self-disclosure beyond intellectual debate and one has to deal with "artistic rejection" (in a general sense).
Assuming the previous statements are basically correct, this might mean that we should start treating AP differently.

[hardcoremoose]

Hey gus,

I wish I could have been responding to this over the past 24 hours, but an unscheduled Comcast outage in my neighborhood has left me without cable or internet access for the past thirty hours or so.  Motherfuckers.  Even caused me to miss the Pistons game last night.  It's only by the good graces of Matt Gwinn that I'm able to get online right now.

Thanks for the responses everyone.  I'm a little surprised...it seems like more people (at least among those who posted) are with me than against me.  I'm glad.

Mike, I'm with you - all I'm saying is we can do better.  And I do hope to be part of that.

Dav, I'm curious about this answer of yours.  And I still want my copy of Violence Future.

Emily, it wasn't my idea to create rules for Actual Play posting.  In practice, I'm probably with Dav - less rules, more chaos - but who knows, maybe it would work.  But these aren't my decisions to make, so I'll leave at that.

Good talk guys.  Take care and thanks.

Scott

[Bob McNamee]

At least you got cable up in time for the Wings playoff game tonight!