Why are Footman's pick and the spike on a Warhammer=ATN6?

[bergh]

Why are Footman's pick and the spike on a Warhammer so low an ATN (6), i think this seems wrong, and they are also killers, +2dam and +1 vs armours are VERY VERY nice.

When i think on a Pick type weapon, i think that i must be hard to hit the right angle all the time!
we all know that in a melee, most hits are not "perfect" hits, so a pick has the same ATN as a normal sword is wrong, a sword have a lot more of "hitting-area" then the pick.

Warhammer/Shield is the most lethal combo in the game....this ignore the high DTN of these weapons.

Why have a sword when you can have a Warhammer? a sword is weaker all-around!

Should the Pick and spikey end of a Warhammer have ATN7 instead?

[Mokkurkalfe]

My take on it is that they should have a damage of +1 instead of +2.

But you said that they have +1 against armour. Is this a typo, or has this been changed? I have the early, first edition of the book, and it says that picks and warhammers have a +2 vs armour.

And as I've said in that other thread, the warhammer is quite vulnerable if you manage to get the shield out of the way.

Still, it is a good weapon, and I'm confused as to why my players always choose swords. :)

[bergh]

it has +2 vs armour, my typo!

somehow sword should be more "equal".

I have stated threads on some "real" weapon and armour forums, asking if it all that superior and all that stuff, until now they have comfirmed me that its acutally harder to hit "the right angle" with s spike, then it is with a sword, becouse a sowrd don't need a fully accurate hit to damage.

So i think that i will push the ATN to 7 on the pick and the Spike on a Warhammer.

[ZenDog]

I think it depends on the type of Armour the opponent wears. Swords are leathal against unarmoured foes, but not so good against someone in plate. This is where the hammers, picks, bec de corbin etc come in.

The combination of weight, and spike, with a good hefty swing is designed to get through that plate, plus remember that guy in plate isn't that nimble.

Agianst someone not in plate of course the hammer/pick etc is still deadly (no one wants to get hit with a hammer) but someone in no armour will have a better chance of dodging out of the way.

The hammer/pick is an answer to the plate, it the old attackk versus defence arms race.

[bergh]

yes i know this, but remeber that most armour is not falt plates, and as you say, swords are not good against armour. which i way they don't got extra damage vs armour, like a warhammer and a pick.

what i have been wondering about is that its as easy to hit with the pick as a sword?, somehow with just my knowledge of tools, (my father is a black smith), its actually quite hard to take his "pick hammer" and hit it through a plate of metal, not becouse it don't get through, but you need to hit it in a very precise angle, or else it glides.

anyway this is a roleplay, and a pick should not has as big an ATN as a Sword, its the same diff to hit with a pick as a mace.
A mace is a stick with a metal head, instead of a spike, and this has the same diff to hit with? comeon!
sword have the merit that they can do damage even on a "gliding" hit!.

in RPG thems, try to look at it! A pick is better then even an axe to hit precise with?, if this is realistic, i can't figure why every one used pick instead of axe's.

I think that a pick is a special anti-armour weapon, with a good armour penetration (+2 vs armour). and should be used against armour.
As the stats are now, there are no justication NOT to use pick against both unarmourd and armoured opponents.

if the pick stats are "realiastic" i can't image why not everyone has this weapon in the middel ages..........right from the beginning....

[ZenDog]

To be honest I don't know Bergh (I haven't seen or used a warpick) I think the ATN is do do with how easy it is to hit something, the fact that you need to be precise to penetrate plate with a pick is another issue, you can still get on target easily. To my mind swinging a mass weapon is pretty easy to do. As to glideing off that has to do with armour, if there is no armour it doesn't glide off either way you still hit the guy.

I don't have thses problems though, my game is a dark ages game, no plate, no picks no dopplehanders. :D

[Andrew Mure]

Why are Footman's pick and the spike on a Warhammer so low an ATN (6), i think this seems wrong, and they are also killers, +2dam and +1 vs armours are VERY VERY nice.

When i think on a Pick type weapon, i think that i must be hard to hit the right angle all the time!
we all know that in a melee, most hits are not "perfect" hits, so a pick has the same ATN as a normal sword is wrong, a sword have a lot more of "hitting-area" then the pick.

Warhammer/Shield is the most lethal combo in the game....this ignore the high DTN of these weapons.

Why have a sword when you can have a Warhammer? a sword is weaker all-around!

Should the Pick and spikey end of a Warhammer have ATN7 instead?

The warhammer's stats are about right. It was a hideously effective military weapon and that is precisely why the sword is much more versitile weapon.

A sword was a socially acceptable weapon, hell being allowed to wear a sword at all times was a mark of certain social classes! Provided one wasn't obviously poor, an individual could go just about anyway with a sword hanging from their hip.

The same cannot be said about a warhammer, a purely military weapon seldom seen away from the battlefield. One didn't carry a warhammer around for any reason other than to kill people in a particularly horrible manner, the sword due its great ability as a parrying weapon could be argued to be for self-defense(as long as one doesn't intend to pair it with a shield, then its purely for attack). I am pretty sure if we were to both approach a medieval town gate dressed in the fashion of the well-to-do, you carrying a warhammer and me a sword, the guards would let me in with my sword where you at the very least would have to leave your warhammer with the guards. Swords are also considerably easier to hide than most other weapons (other than daggers) due to their medium size and straight shape.

The sword (in its various incarnations) is also arguably the best weapon to wield on its own, due to its middle of the range TNs, whereas the warhammer leaves you severely vunerable unless you pair it with a shield. Note just because a character has bought a shield and is trained in its use doesn't mean they will have use of a shield in every combat.

For example your party's camp is attacked by bandits in the night, as you wake you realise you will only have time to pick up your weapon or your shield before they are upon you, which do you take? In such a situation I would much rather have a sword to hand than a warhammer.

The sword's well-deserved title as 'the King of Weapons' was not gained from being the best weapon in any one situation, but rather a good weapon to have in many.

[bergh]

i will agree that a warhammer is a very good weapon, maybe i did not write it correct (im not good at english), and ofcourse a warhammers "hammer side" does damage even on a "gliding" hit.
"the hammer side" of the warhammer is all ok by me.

What im talking about it the Spike on the warhammer or Foot mans pick.
i know by my own experince in my fathers workshop that a pointy spike should be hit in a precise angle to penetrate metal plates, adn most armour has round angles, to make it even harder! so as i see it either a pick or the "pick" side of the warhammer can't do much damage if they only do a "gliding hit".
Therefor i think it should have ATN7, and this is the same as an axe, and i can't figure how a axe should be harder to use then a Pick?.

[Andrew Mure]

Granted if you feel the pointy end of warhammers and picks should be ATN 7 (like an axe) its your call as GM.

My point is there are other ways you can make these weapons less desirable other than changing its stats, though perhaps the stats may need adjusting too. I think I might just say this before anyone else does - Jake and Brian may say something about a review of these weapons in 'Flower of Battle'!

[BPetroff93]

Picks, maces and warhammers became more popular during the late middle ages, as armor became more advanced, because they were great tools for killing people inside metal shells.

[Irmo]

Actually, to use a sword effectively, you will also have to align the edge properly. Any deviation of the proper angle will quickly reduce your nice and clean cut to an ugly tearing off limbs, which requires way more strength and seriously messes up your techniques, because you won't be able to properly pull your blade through the entire movement.

At least that's my experience from a little bit of test cutting with sharp blades. I had serious trouble cutting some bamboo when not really doing my techniques close to 100% correct, and I figure it would be even worse when attempting to cut through real bone. And the pumpkins I mutilated also only showed nice and clean cuts when everything was right. Otherwise, I'd cut a bit into the pumpkin and then tear off the rest of the top.

[Mike Holmes]

I agree with Berg here. I mean, what's the ATN for an axe (no info in front of me)? For the pick side of a warhammer, these should be the same, no?

Mike

[bergh]

Axe=ATN7 damage st+1, +1 dam vs armour. DTN10
Pick/warhammer spike=ATN6 Damage st+2, +2 dam vs. armour. DTN8

which one would you choose? :-)

for me pick is ok if it get ATN7, still very powerfull, but more balanced both realistic and game technical.

[Caz]

Kinda reminds me, anyone know why it's easier to thrust with a scimitar than a straight sword in TROS?
   Typo?  Ignorance?  (don't mean that offensively)
No biggie, easy enuf to change, but kinda annoying having things like that in the rules.

[bergh]

yes that is funny, even when under the description i qoute:
"..though stat same curvature slightly complicates the mechanics of thrusting.....".
and they are rougly the same length.

i have "corrected" it in my book to 6.

yes it is kinda annoying, that a RPG like TRoS, who depend heavly on combat, somehow maybe have some problems with the weapons stats.

Anyway maybe Jake has researched it, i don't know, i just hope he will let us know, in the future how wrong we are and how correct the stats are in the book! :-) (hehe).