Character Improvement in Sorcerer, or What Is Lxndr Missing?

[Lxndr]

Reading through the Sorcerer main book, character improvement seems to be tied to "the end of a story" (which may or may not have anything to do with a kicker).  Resolving a Kicker allows you to rewrite your character, changing scores (other than humanity) at will, as long as they add up to the same number.  

But there's another process written in the book that is unconnected to the Kicker, at least as far as the text itself is concerned.  That's the "roll humanity vs. your stats at the end of a story" mechanic, which seems to be ignored by a goodly portion of the posters about the game on these boards, instead looking solely at the Kicker-resolution process.

Now, through the quote below (originally from http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10740), it seems as though the designer of the game is even saying that the only reward comes in terms of resolving a Kicker, which makes me wonder what I'm missing - or, perhaps, why this other thing ("increasing character statistics") isn't considered a character reward.  The book seems to make it clear that the process of statistic increase is separate from the process of Kicker resolution.

So... what am I missing?

That's why character improvement in Sorcerer and The Riddle of Steel, to pick two examples of strong Narrativist-ish systems which also are highly committed to certain mechanical constraints on events, is subordinated to Premise-addressing. The improvement isn't itself the reward, but rather an expression of the reward: in the one case, for resolving a Kicker, and in the other, for gaining points in Spiritual Attributes.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Alexander,

Not having the book in front of me, here's what I remember it saying (paraphrase).

Resolve Kicker
1. Roll Humanity against scores, in order desired. Improve with successful roll; once you've done this successfully or reach the end of the list, stop.

2. Change any and all descriptors as desired.

3. Write a new Kicker if you'd like to keep playing this character.

In other words, I conceive all of the above to be linked to resolving the Kicker. That's because I consider "resolving the Kicker" and "end of the story" as very nearly identical. In some cases, the Kicker seems resolved but some loose ends or climactic "clean-up" moments remain to be done, in which case, I consider the Kicker not to be resolved yet.

I think perhaps the difficulty for you might be arising out of some kind of "complete the scenario" image, in your mind, associated with the phrase "completing the story." In Sorcerer, "the story" is composed primarily of character decisions.

Now, cut me slack - I'll go and check and see what the damn thing actually says, and explain how it does or doesn't relate to the above, but it won't be within the next few hours.

Best,
Ron

[Sean]

The discussion in this thread

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8485

was helpful to me on the topic in question.

[Lxndr]

The book is organized (as I flip through it) as follows (underlined headers are exact, everything below it is paraphrased)

----------------
Experience

Blah blah storyline blah blah roll Humanity vs attributes blah blah.

Story Conclusion

Blah blah Kicker resolved blah blah rewrite stats blah blah choose new Price blah blah create new Kicker.
---------

In other words, the organization in the book is what led me to think "okay, this is one discrete entity, and this over here that mentions the Kicker resolving is another discrete entity."  This is unlike Ron's post, where "Resolve Kicker" happens at the top of the list, rather than in another separate section.  Heck, the Kicker isn't even mentioned in the same sub-section as the ssub-section with the "Experience" header.

Anyway.  Thanks Ron for showing me how you imagine it going about, although I do want to point out that, at least for me, the layout of the book seems to suggest something closer to my interpretation.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Alexander,

I understand your point about the organization. What I'm not seeing is "your interpretation."

The book does say: roll Humanity against the other scores (stopping when successful) at the end of a story.

It also says, re-write Descriptors and Kicker when the current Kicker is resolved.

Since I see those two things as irretrievably linked, I'm still not seeing an alternative interpretation - i.e., an explicit understanding of when to do the Humanity rolls which differs from the above.

Or to put it differently, when do you think you're supposed to conduct the Humanity rolls, according to your reading of the text, as distinct from the re-writes?

Best,
Ron

[jburneko]

Hello Ron,

Alexander's confusion is very similar to my own when I first read the book as well.  The two things are listed in two different sections using different verbiage.  In fact, it almost confused me with regard to how a Kicker is supposed to be used.  When I first read about Kickers I interpreted their use correctly (that they are the driving force for Situation) but when I got to the improvement section I thought I might have missed something.

The wording in the book makes it sound like it's possible to resolve Situation independent of the Kicker.  It makes one think of this kind of setup.  On the X-Files it could be constructed (incorrectly) that Fox Mulder's "Kicker" is that his sister was abducted by aliens when he was a kid thus propelling his interest in the occult and the FBI.  Thus at the end of each individual episode (i.e. mission based Situation) he does the Humanity roll thing but only if he ever actually finds his sister does he do the character rewrite thing.

That's how the text could be (mis)read.

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Argh. I accept that the writing is poor. My question is whether it communicates something else besides what I clarified as its intended meaning, not whether it fails to communicate what I wanted.

Best,
Ron

[jburneko]

Ron,

My point was that it DOES communicate something else.  It communicates that "end of story" and "resolves kicker" are two different things leading to the Fox Mulder interpretation above.

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Ah. OK, all set.

Thanks for pointing this out, folks. I might well re-organize this section in a later printing.

Best,
Ron

[Lxndr]

Yeah, just to re-iterate, what Jesse's talking about (well, not sure about the mulder-x-files thing specifically) is what I see.  Assuming Jesse and I are talking about the same thing.

To go into a bit more detail, the way the text is set up, under "Development", subheader "Experience", it immediately talks about character improvement through the conclusion of "storylines" (whatever those are) and even mentions the phrase "every adventure", making it look like a "storyline" and an "adventure" are one and the same.

After this discussion is complete, it goes on to say "oh, yeah, and Kickers, when they resolve, this happens."  Kickers are never mentioned prior to this point, and the whole discussion about resolving Kickers and what to do when they're resolved is under a separate sub-header with no mention or reference to the previous section at all.  Thus, through the placement of the text, implying that "storyline/adventure endings" are different from "Kicker resolving" (also called "story conclusion").

It implies that there's a distinction between "story" and "storyline" - and that in the former case concluding, you get to rewrite your character, and in the latter case concluding, you just roll some dice.  It also specifically shows that the "Kicker" only comes into play in one case, and not both.  

This didn't really seem like a bad idea to me, this thread has pointed out that this is not the intent of the rules as written, or the designer.  So, yeah.  I see what I'm missing now.