the "supplement treadmill"

[Valamir]

The main trouble here is that most RPG companies are content to let D&D be the gateway product for all roleplayers. Well that, and marketing to new markets costs money most companies don't have. That said, you do see games from time to time that try to buck the trend. Our Blue Rose game is trying to bring readers of Romantic Fantasy fiction into roleplaying directly, for instance.


WotC spent a staggering sum of money marketing 3E, and they built on a very recognizable brand name, but even so they didn't break 1 million units of the Player's Handbook. The type of marketing you are talking about is simply beyond the means of most RPG companies.

I would GREATLY appreciate you, at some point, starting on a thread on Blue Rose and describing what you are doing to actively bring readers of romantic fantasy into roleplaying.  How you're promoting it, what venues you're going after, what different approach and presentation you take with a non gamer audience.

Expanding beyond normal gamerdom is a frequent rallying cry around here.  It would be great to have a an actual functional datapoint of one way it was done and how it turned out.

[FFG Greg]

Hey Ralph,

See my comments on gross margins in the previous post. The range of revenues I listed was just a way of categorizing "small business" for the practical purposes of the RPG "industry" (damn I'm using a lot of quotes). You're right, but as I note, gross margins on RPG products are actually very good. It's a little bitty market niche, though, so volume is a typically a real problem.

[FFG Greg]

Hey Ralph,

See my comments on gross margins in the previous post. The range of revenues I listed was just a way of categorizing "small business" for the practical purposes of the RPG "industry" (damn I'm using a lot of quotes). You're right, but as I note, gross margins on RPG products are actually very good. It's a little bitty market niche, though, so volume is a typically a real problem.

[daMoose_Neo]

Ralph-

If you're actually interested in doing some numbers on that (small VR companies), I can provide some come the close of the year~
My company, Neo Productions Unlimited, exists purely in VR. We have three core members from around the world (Myself in the States, Kyle in Canada and Mike in the Netherlands) as well as a pair junior members in Australia and Florida. With freelance and design work, we've worked with five individuals and two studios, as well as working out an arrangement with a small film studio for the production of some live commercials.
Neo's existed in some fashion or another for the past four years with this year being the biggest push from hobby to smallish-business. All of our contact up to this point has been online, though we may have a physical meeting at GenCon this summer (mostly out of "it would be cool if").
Our "flagship" title is the card game Final Twilight (See signiture), though we're also working on various pieces of software (Vortex, an RPGMaker style program for online RPGs and KABrowser for the Canadian school system).
This is the first year we've made an actual effort to do anything more than hobby work, so its going to be interesting come the close of the year.
As far as financing, we're looking at about $7,000 start-up (TCG's are NOT cheap) including artwork expenses, marketing, printing, and other incidental costs (mostly related to site maintance such as domains and hosting).

[Valamir]

Good stuff Neo.  Perhaps you'd like to start a thread here in publishing describing your virtual collaboration.  Strengths, weaknesses...times you really wished you all could be physically together and how you worked around that.  What sort of technology you used to facilitate the collaboration beyond email and phone calls (if any), that sort of thing.  Would be pretty interesting IMO.

Also, how have you managed to do a CCG on a $7,000 budget?  My understanding was that the card printing alone typically starts around $10,000.  That would make for a good new thread as well.

[Ben Lehman]

I would note that there is one company that does very very well on the "supplement treadmill--" it has a few game lines which it produces mad amounts of supplements for, and seems to stay pretty solvent.  That company is Palladium Books.

I'd love to see some comments as to how they pull this off, although I know that they are a rather secretive company and thus even less information is availible than one might expect.

What makes RIFTS different from Vampire, in a sales perspective?

yrs--
--Ben

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Chris (Pramas)*, your point about the actual status of distributors within GAMA isn't relevant to my point. As I see it, any inclusion of distributors in a "manufacturer's" business organization, on any basis except as potential customers, is letting the fox into the henhouse. Their actual number is irrelevant as well - the single vote and verbal input of a distributor is a powerful thing, especially in such a small and rumor-heavy community. The impact on the bookstores is historically observable, and I especially call attention to the changes in buy-back policies throughout the short history of the hobby.

Second, you referred to hubris. As I see it, any perception that my (or a typical Forge) outlook is all about "we're better, you suck" is a matter of projection. A game's quality is what it is, regardless of who wrote it or how it was produced - independently or not. I do think that independent publishing offers a better business model, and that the ideal of a career-fulfilling game company has gone bust hundreds of times. I also think that independent publishing (as defined here at the Forge) yields better games [/i]on the average[/i]. But neither of these points are anyone's concern but my own, and they certainly have nothing to with "you all suck." Again, any perception of such a thing is plain old low-self-esteem projection: "That guy must think I suck, how dare he."

Ben, if I'm suspicious of White Wolf's source of operating funds, then I'm doubly so for Palladium. I make no claims about either company, but I don't see any reason to assume, off the top, that their production costs are met from their sales-based profits.

Best,
Ron

* Too many Chris's! Oh well.

[xiombarg]

Ben, if I'm suspicious of White Wolf's source of operating funds, then I'm doubly so for Palladium. I make no claims about either company, but I don't see any reason to assume, off the top, that their production costs are met from their sales-based profits.

Especially when you consider that Palladium is, in essence, one man and his wife -- nearly all of Palladium's other "employees" are arguably freelancers. That isn't all that different from any other form of one-man outfit or family business.

I also have to wonder if the demise of West End Games (yes, I know they technically still exist, kinda, but not like they used to) has anything constructive to offer us.

Also, on the issue of employees, I will note there are many non-publishing careers and/or businesses that do not have employees. An accountant, a business consultant, even a doctor can run a business without any employees, tho the latter ususally has a secretary, at least. And those are just off the top of my head, not even considering things like pretzel carts, which are very much one-man businesses in the fullest sense. That would seem to imply the idea that in order to be a "legitimate business" you need employees should be reconsidered.

[Matt Wilson]

Ben, if I'm suspicious of White Wolf's source of operating funds, then I'm doubly so for Palladium. I make no claims about either company, but I don't see any reason to assume, off the top, that their production costs are met from their sales-based profits.

Especially when you consider that Palladium is, in essence, one man and his wife -- nearly all of Palladium's other "employees" are arguably freelancers. That isn't all that different from any other form of one-man outfit or family business.

Is Palladium the sole source of income for this one man and his wife? I would think that if the writing is contracted out, there's not a lot for him to do.

In any case, he's gotten a massive amount of return on the same 40 or so pages of rules for the last 15-20 years.

[xiombarg]

Is Palladium the sole source of income for this one man and his wife? I would think that if the writing is contracted out, there's not a lot for him to do.

That's a good question. Palladium plays very close to the chest, so no one's sure. I welcome input from anyone who knows something...

In any case, he's gotten a massive amount of return on the same 40 or so pages of rules for the last 15-20 years.

Which, if rumor is to be believed, was mostly written by the wife, probably for free. Talk about lowering your overhead costs... ;-D

[quozl]

Is Palladium the sole source of income for this one man and his wife? I would think that if the writing is contracted out, there's not a lot for him to do.

You might find this press release interesting:
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/press/press2004-04.html

[Pramas]

Chris (Pramas)*, your point about the actual status of distributors within GAMA isn't relevant to my point.

Since when are the facts not relevent? You said they demanded and received full voting member status. That is false and it's falsehood undermines the point that rested on it.

As I see it, any inclusion of distributors in a "manufacturer's" business organization, on any basis except as potential customers, is letting the fox into the henhouse.

First of all, you are drastically over-estimating GAMA's importance. GAMA has been trying to improve itself and become more relevent, but for many years the organization has done little but run the GAMA Trade Show and Origins. Second, the current by-laws have been in place for 14 years. I don't think you can ascribe any major events of the game industry in that time to the fact that distributors had a Wholesale Division in GAMA and one seat on the board.

But neither of these points are anyone's concern but my own, and they certainly have nothing to with "you all suck." Again, any perception of such a thing is plain old low-self-esteem projection: "That guy must think I suck, how dare he."

Ah, I see. So there was no contempt in your mind when you said this?

"I know you wrote this humorously, but it also demonstrates the self-blinding distraction I see all the time among people in the so-called "industry."

Or this?

"That would be the so-called "industry" Red Herring #2."

Or this?
"(this term would provoke gales of laughter from anyone engaged in an actual industry)."

And surely I was imagining a self-congratulatory tone when Xiombarg said this:

"To me, this is a shining example of what's wrong with the "supplement treadmill" that the distribution system imposes on the market. ...Contrast this to games sold mainly through direct sales, which rarely have this problem, even if they are reasonably popular..."

Yeah, guess that was all in my mind.

[Ron Edwards]

Chris,

You've been sarcastic and patronizing on this thread. You are expected to cease instantly. I tell you this very seriously: the contemptuous smack-down behavior that's standard on industry websites and lists is absolutely not tolerated here.

1. "Falsehood?" You corrected my mistake, fairly. I accepted that then and do so now. This is an example of correct comportment on my part - accusing me of actually lying ("falsehood") is an example of poor comportment on yours.

2. The observed phenomenon I'm talking about (sudden drop in rate of publication of core books; boom in supplements) dates back, yes, to 15+ years ago. GAMA meant a lot more back then.

3. Regarding tones and intents, what you're doing is in fact projection. Furthermore, it's of no interest or use to take on the role of defender of others. No one has expressed contempt for you, yourself. Take care of yourself; leave "others" to do it for themselves if they want to.

You've participated here long enough to recognize that only one person's judgment reigns here, regarding comportment: mine. If you don't like it, there are ways to appeal, but otherwise, it might be time to decide whether you're contributing or gaining anything by posting here.

Best,
Ron

[xiombarg]

And surely I was imagining a self-congratulatory tone when Xiombarg said this:

Um, yeah, Chris, you were imagining it. At the very least, you could give me the benefit of the doubt.

When I started this thread, I was interested in hearing about the effects on publishing RPGs caused by the demand for supplements in the current distribution system, and was concerned about its effect on the creative output even of companies considered to be a success by many gamers, like White Wolf.

I appreciate your input on this thread, tho I'm a bit confused by your rancor.

[daMoose_Neo]

Things are vastly different than from fifteen years ago too~
Forge = perfect example~
I'm not big in the "industry" background and maybe I'm stating the obvious, but there has to be some kind of corrilation here. If the Wholesalers got a seat on the GAMA board or whatever about fourteen years ago with the current by-laws (or even earlier?) and the trend has been going this way for about the past fifteen years, I don't think thats purely coincidence- The proverbial instant they sign on to GAMA the 'industry' adjusts itself to their way of doing things?
GAMA's probably lost a lot of its prestige due to that and the net here~ Indy developers can produce things at their pace, aren't bound to the mercy of the major publishers and their release schedules, indy developers can take the time to develop whatever supplements/adventures they may want to add to their core or they could just support the core, whatever they want~
Without the new blood, GAMA's stuck with the Wholesalers, retailers, clubs and conventions with mostly the older companies as developing members. Least thats how it looks to me from the outside~

*sorry if this is off topic*

how have you managed to do a CCG on a $7,000 budget?

Little creativity ^_^
1) This is the first half of the initial set, 50 cards only to this "set"
2) Went through a company in India for the printing, able to order 2016 decks of 54 cards for around $3600
3) To get what I wanted (3 different precon decks), I had to be a little creative- each deck I ordered contained 1 of each card plus a couple reprints for cards common to all decks. Now, once they're in, I have to sit down and do a little repacking, but I get what I wanted at a cost I could afford. I'm going to end up with about 504 of each deck type and some extras I can use as giveaways at conventions, events or 'mini decks' for demo purposes or sending stores~
Total ends up like:
$3600~ for printing
$2000 for art (53 pieces)
$ 620 for GenCon booth
$ 800 accounts for majority of incidental costs (some shipping costs, internet hosting, domains, DBA and other small business type costs)