Conflict Resolution, questions and confirmations

[Nev the Deranged]

Yes, d12s. Just for variety's sake, and because I had a jones to buy more dice recently. And I prefer lots of dramatic rolls and bonuses rather than a bunch of tied up results.

 Set it up during the announcement phase, eh?

 Gosh, that's so simple, why didn't I think of that?

 So, when everyone's announcing stuff, I would just pipe up:
"Hey, Cassie, if you guys are struggling over the book, Amber's shot stands a chance of hitting you too... and maybe even the book."

 Okay. Makes good sense. I'm down.

 Now how to handle it mechanically? Is it legal for Amber's single roll to target both Bruce and Cassie, or should there be two rolls, or what? And what about the book, since it has nothing to roll? Should I just set a "likelihood" score, (obviously it wouldn't be a "difficulty" score, as Amber wasn't TRYING to hit the book)... ?

 And to be honest, man, I had a really hard time following our game. I had hoped that one game would be enough to pretty much savvify me Sorcerer-wise, but for some reason that didn't happen. I never really was sure what was going on. I guess I'm just to used to D&D style conflict resolution, I couldn't quite grasp what the dice results "meant" when we were tossing them around. I mean, intellectually it makes fine sense, and even when I test roll for my own scenarios it doesn't confuse me... I dunno. My perpetual inability to really get my teeth around this game is a source of consistent and intense consternation to me. I think I have more unlearning to do before I can really let it sink in. Or something. Doesn't seem like it should be this big a deal, does it?

[Nev the Deranged]

So, when everyone's announcing stuff, I would just pipe up:
"Hey, Cassie, if you guys are struggling over the book, Amber's shot stands a chance of hitting you too... and maybe even the book."

Okay. Makes good sense. I'm down.

Now how to handle it mechanically? Is it legal for Amber's single roll to target both Bruce and Cassie, or should there be two rolls, or what? And what about the book, since it has nothing to roll? Should I just set a "likelihood" score, (obviously it wouldn't be a "difficulty" score, as Amber wasn't TRYING to hit the book)... ?

Got the "why" part, still fuzzy on the "how".

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

The first thing to do is get rid of this "difficulty" you keep talking about. The dice rolled by the GM are oppositional dice; they may or may not include "difficulty" as conceived by many RPG sections. You keep stumbling over that, and it ain't in the book. Difficulty is only mentioned as a potential component of opposition (I just checked).

Once we settle that, then what? The dice diagrams in Sex & Sorcery are all about this. I really gotta say, I did my best to explain it there, and I dread the prospect of walking you through them step by step.

Regardless of dissecting out their every detail, are you comfy with the very idea of what those diagrams are about? Or should we start with that?

Best,
Ron

[Nev the Deranged]

Okay.

"opposition", "difficulty", whatever. I'm not really seeing a difference except semantically. I mean, I get that the opposition dice don't always mean "how hard" or "chance to fail" or whatever, but you have to call it something.

So, fine, call it "opposition". Okay.

What is "opposing" Amber's chances of shooting A) Cassie or B) the Book, neither of which she is actually TRYING to hit, and therefore is not being directly OPPOSED by anything.

Any other game, I could figure it out, or make it up. Sorcerer doesn't like being fiddled with, except for the parts that are designed to be fiddled with. And I, personally, not speaking for anyone else here, can't always tell the fuggin' difference. Shame on me.

I don't need a philosophical answer, or a narrative answer, or whatever. I need the Sim answer. How do I figure out what dice to roll and what do they mean. The links between Nar. principles and Sim. mechanics aren't always immediately apparent to me.

Or Narrative mechanics. Or whatever it's called. Ignore my ignorant GNS-speak if that's an obstacle to explaining the actual answer to my actual question.

I just want to know WHAT to do.

*sigh* apologies all around for general tiredness and any ill effects it may have on my posting.

[Nev the Deranged]

Oh yeah. Yes, I more or less get the diagram thing. I did a diagram for this. When I get to the diagrams, I'm sure I'll have more questions about it, but I'm still on the first book.

And like I said, I get what you're saying about dice not meaning "difficulty", I really do. That was never really a concern of mine, I just used the word "difficulty" out of habit or convenience.  I'm pretty sure I'm tight with the currency thing now.

The problem I'm having with this example is that there's nothing "opposing" the action. I know the GM is free to assign "opposition" dice to represent the... "difficulty+whatever+etc." of an action, but I'm unclear how to make that judgement call based on the three individual potential results of a single action.

ACTION: Amber fires her gun at Bruce.

POTENTIAL 1: Bruce does or does not get shot. ACTION BY AMBER OPPOSED BY BRUCE.
POTENTIAL 2: Cassie the PC, whom Amber is not actively aiming at, does or does not get shot. ACTION BY... AMBER??? OPPOSE BY... CASSIE???
POTENTIAL 3: The Book (non-Character with no stats), whom Amber is also not actively aiming at, does or does not get shot. ACTION BY... AMBER?? OPPOSED BY... GM FIAT???

Does my question make more sense now, I hope?

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

I've got the diagram of all the basic actions drawn out in front of me. Five characters are rolling.

Amber is shooting Bruce
Bruce is taking the book from Cassie
Cassie is kicking Bruce in the nads
Darren is stopping Amber from shooting
Ella is stopping Darren from stopping Amber

Note that "protect book from Bruce" is Cassie's goal, and kicking Bruce is considered to count toward that goal regardless of the damage done. This is subtle and important, because that roll is distinct from her defensive roll (of however many dice) vs. Bruce's grab.

We'll say that the GM points out that both Cassie and the book are potentially at risk from Amber's bullet.

Anyway, make all the above rolls. Do not roll any other dice at this time. The book has no dice; it has no scores. Leave all the dice on the table.

Next: in order, discover whether each character's roll succeeds, factoring in damage and aborted actions as necessary. Here's where things get tricky, because the process I'm about to describe may come in the middle or at the end of this process, depending on when Amber's shot actually comes in the sequence.

Now for the part that answers your question. If Amber's bullet hit Bruce, then it's no big deal. But if it didn't, then who is currently at risk?

Well, that's going to depend heavily on the immediate, in-game context of what actions were taken to defend, if any. Perhaps Cassie has staggered back from Bruce, and Bruce has the book. Or perhaps Bruce is doubled up, clutching his groin, and Cassie is yelling "My precious" and dancing about. Or perhaps they are still doing the "no it's mine" waltz.

If it's obvious who (book or Cassie) is nearest the line of fire, as in "where Bruce was," then we know who's at risk. You don't need a hex map to figure that out - the degree of movement each character has made has already been made explicit during the rolling/comparison stage. You can't play this system without that happening.

If it's not obvious (case 3 above, in which Cassie and the book are in close proximity and still in the potential line-of-fire), then go with whoever failed by the most or succeeded by the least. How do we know what the book rolled? Because now is the time to roll the book's "defense" against the bullet (Amber's roll, as it still stands on the table). Since the book is not a character, these are plain old GM oppositional dice, which express how much risk he or she thinks the book stands in. I'd put it at three dice given my current mental image, which is far less detailed than it would be in actual play.

Now for the part that

If Cassie is at risk, does she get a new defense roll? Sure. Full dice, presuming (a) she has already had her action and (b) she took no damage.

If (a) is not correct, in that Amber's shot misses Bruce before Cassie defends against him, then Cassie has a difficult decision to make about aborting her kick in order to avoid being shot. If (b) is not correct, no big deal; she's just penalized.

If both Cassie and the book are at risk, they both make defense rolls, and the outcomes are easy to figure out: (1) both succeed, neither damaged; (2) one fails, so she or it is damaged and the other isn't; (3) both fail, in which case the one who failed by the most is damaged. (Some forms of attack, e.g. a demonic flame-breath, would simply affect both in this case.)

How about any roll-overs? Let's assume that Cassie goes first, kicks Bruce successfully, then defends against his grab easily (as the kick-damage adds to her roll), and then Amber's shot arrives. I see every reason for Cassie to get her victories from the grab-defense as a bonus to her full Stamina to avoid the shot, as she is fully on top of the situation. In other words, assign any roll-overs from the original rolls into any and all of these secondary rolls as seems appropriate.

Tellin' ya, this is the easiest system in the world to use in this way. You can factor in many different secondary and add-on conflicts into the existing dice diagram, as long as they do not involve new actions on anyone's part. And the existing rolls and their opposition rolls provide all kinds of potential bonuses and penalties into the secondary ones.

Best,
Ron

P.S. That was not a Sim question. It was a System question. This has been a message by the GNS pedant, who doesn't care whether anyone actually wanted that clarified.

[Nev the Deranged]

YAAAAAYY!!!
*dancing around, clapping and cheering*

That's exactly the post I wanted to see, thank you ^_^

And, for the record, that's pretty much how I would have handled it "fudgewise", anyway. Which I hope means my gaming instincts haven't completely abandoned me.

THANKIES!!