Is the Forge a hit parade?

[Matt Snyder]

In his reply in the Hubris, the Sequel thread in Site News, the Ayatollah of Rock n Roll-ah (aka Dav Harnish), said the following:

The Forge talks a damn good game.

It talks and talks and talks.

A good chunk of these people have little idea what it takes to make a game go. And I mean as a product. Theorize all you want, but until you go through the trenches, it's only hot air. If you want to prove you know about something, show me, don't tell me.

I think the Forge spends too much time resting on past accomplishments (especially by people who were not necessarily participating at the time of those accomplishments). Sorcerer, Dust Devils, My Life With Master, Kill Puppies for Satan, Universalis. All excellent, what have you done for me lately? What's next? What now?

The Forge can stick little labels on everything it sees, but that does not a designer make.

Frankly, I agree with his sentiment. What have you done for me lately, Forge? I say that with tongue planted firmly in cheek. But the Ayatollah has a point.

It seems to me that we had a number of "buzz-worthy" games between 2001-2002. Sorcerer & Little Fears (both of which came a bit earlier) were riding to big success. My own Dust Devils got a lot of buzz. As did Universalis, The Riddle of Steel, octaNe, InSpectres, and several other notable games both on and off the Forge (Cartoon Action Hour, for example).

More lately, I've noticed less visible "buzz" for games associated w/ the Forge. Maybe that's just me. My Life with Master and Burning Wheel have generated good interest over the last year (thanks in no small part to their creator's diligent efforts, especially at smaller cons).

So, three questions:

First, does the Forge gain or suffer substantially by the buzzworthiness of it's "related" published games? Are "hits" important?

Second, are publishers coming up for air, and ready to dive in for another round of ass-kickin' games? I know that's my excuse in trying to get my next game out the door.

Third, what's next? I have a few ideas of what's coming. Anyone bold enough to name some upcoming "hits"? And, far more importanly, anyone have ideas on how to make a game a hit, thereby lifting up others' games (esp. at the Forge booth)?

Here are a few of my own ideas:

Continue to innovate, and offer tight, well-done, usually "smaller" games (basically, in terms of page count). Also, go the extra mile where you can to get them looking good. Dust Devils, for example, was a pretty "basement" production with its comb binding, but I did my damndest to make it look good anyway with color covers, good art & design, and quality parchment paper and coverstock.

Figure out ways to encourage people to play the games, rather than read 'em, collect 'em, or review 'em. This might involve: Demos, awards programs, or discounts/freebies for playtesters. Just some ideas there.

Help games you believe in. Include (preferably trade!) ads for other games within your own game publications. Share resources where available. I have never found indie publishers to be competing on any serious level. Cooperation can, I think, only help fellow publisher greatly.

[Dav]

Matt (the man who always has Big Slick in the hole! -- I bet ya never knew Texas Hold 'Em could sound that dirty):

I would agree with your agreeing, but that seems like we are coming awfully close to mutual masturbation.  Therefore, let me say that it has been pointed-out to me by a little bird that perhaps I should actually *do* something about this rather than harangue the poor sots drifting about the stage of life... which, if I may say, seems terribly less fun, but more... adjusted.

This I will indeed do.

An article or something soonish, and free offers of ad space to any bastard that has the guts to show himself (or itself, gotta be PC) at any of my unmentioned contact points in the Unfortunate Destinies MMIV publication, as well as the IGC publication (and I may nigh well plug the hell out of some of you whether you like it or not... and dammit).

Jake, Jared, Jason, John (damn, that might be all the "J" names), Luke, Matt, Mike, Ralph, Ron, (you can't realize it, unless you have bugged this computer, but I just inadvertently typed that list in alphabetical order... which is creepy) Sprite... all you are gettin' mad props in the UDMMIV (which, I promise, will be the only way I refer to it from this point forward).

So, then, I *suppose* I could go so far as to offer my printing services and connections (I may or may not have access to a HUGE Davdamn printing and binding machine beast thing).  I guess I can offer layout and writing and art too... But not editing, I don't do editing (heh, lil joke for you out there, kids!).

All right, I stop now to go back to near-bastardom, this nice thing makes my nose bleed.

Dav

[Luke]

Figure out ways to encourage people to play the games, rather than read 'em, collect 'em, or review 'em. This might involve: Demos, awards programs, or discounts/freebies for playtesters. Just some ideas there.

Help games you believe in. Include (preferably trade!) ads for other games within your own game publications. Share resources where available. I have never found indie publishers to be competing on any serious level. Cooperation can, I think, only help fellow publisher greatly.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

I am constantly amazed by how little games are actually played. What's the answer? Play the damn games. Where? With whom? Much to my amazement, I have found local cons to be a great source of gamers. I sincerely didn't think this was true, but since I have hit the beat supporting Burning Wheel I have met some of the coolest people who will remain life-long friends.  Not mention that I've played the game with hundreds of people I've never met before. How cool is that?!

Second facet of amazement: No players for con games. I've seen so many shrugged shoulders, "No one showed up." You don't expect people to just show up and bestow gifts on you, do you? You've got to rope people in! Make them play. You know they're going to have a good time, I know they are, but they don't know yet. You've got to convince them. How? 5-10 minute lightning demos, bribery, cheese, what ever it takes.

I love this forum, I love self-publishing, and I love all your weird games. I've been busting my hump the past eight months getting out there and promoting other people's games at local cons. Mike Miller's Indie Game Extravaganza actually worked. People had heard of these games and wanted to play. I had 8 players for my kill puppies for satan game (hail, satan!).

Testimonial: Jared didn't buy the whole Forge East table thing until he saw it in action at ICON. Now he's a believer.

So I think the only way to prove'em wrong -- to actually create buzz and manufacture hits is through deliberate, considered and enthusiastic mutal support. Ron and CRN have done us a huge favor by creating a central meeting point/clearing house for games. It's our job, as game designers, to actually create the fucking games and get them out there!

Hot damn, I'm all heated up!
-Luke

[Paganini]

OK, this is getting ridiculous. Is it not the prime function of the forge to promote ACTUAL PLAY? Has not Ron stated repeatedly that the Actual Play forum is the MOST IMPORTANT FORUM on the board? Why are you guys even putting up with the accusations from non-Forge members that we don't play? What the heck? You're *agreeing* with them that we don't play? Exactly what are you basing your assumption on? Do you have statistics? Have you actually polled Forge posters to see how many of us are playing on a regular basis? Instead of agreeing with baseless statements, how about we counter them with some baseless statements of our own. Maybe "Forge members game more frequently than RPG.NET posters!" would be a nice contrast. The burden of proof isn't on *us,* for crying out loud... *we* don't have a problem with us.

If you don't post to the Forge, you don't know how often Forge members play. Even if you *do* post to the Forge, you don't know unless other members are sharing their experiences -> -> -> Actual Play forum!

If some people want to get ticked off because the Forge has actual academic standards and requirements of thought, then let them call us elite snobs, or noobs or whatever. If they want to say that the discussions here produce impractical ideas of merit only as academic minutiae, who cares? I'm going to go play Universalis, the Pool, The Riddle of Steel, and every other game I can get my hands on that puts those ideas to good use. Do we really need threads and threads and posts and posts of Forge Identity Crisis crap eating bandwidth and distracting everyone?

[Michael S. Miller]

It seems to me that we had a number of "buzz-worthy" games between 2001-2002. Sorcerer & Little Fears (both of which came a bit earlier) were riding to big success. My own Dust Devils got a lot of buzz. As did Universalis, The Riddle of Steel, octaNe, InSpectres, and several other notable games both on and off the Forge (Cartoon Action Hour, for example).

[snip]

Second, are publishers coming up for air, and ready to dive in for another round of ass-kickin' games? I know that's my excuse in trying to get my next game out the door.

I think you answer your own question here, Matt. It's a matter of quality = time. These things take about two years, it seems. For instance, Ralph & Mike debuted Universalis at GenCon '02. Isn't Ralph's Robots & Rapiers due out GenCon '04? Your Dust Devils came out at the same time, and it seems to me that Nine Worlds would likely be ready for release this summer if you hadn't taken a lot of time out of your schedule to put together this kick-ass webzine called Daedelus. Great games take time to cook.

In the pipeline, we have the NoPress Anthology, the Iron Game Chef, Lxndr's Fastlane, and I think Matt Wilson's PrimeTime Adventures will be out. I'll have a preview of Excelsior! at the booth. Plus, there's likely more that I don't know about (like Dav's UDMMIV--what is that and why isn't it in the resource library?). So, that looks like at least 5.5 brand-new games (counting NPA and IGC as one apiece, although they're anthologies--anthologies! No one's ever done Anthologies of RPGs!). Plus, Luke Crane will be releasing his massive Monster Burner for BW at the con. Paul's shelves will be groaning under the weight of it all!

Plus, the folks at Ad Astra Games (whose name I can't remember) will be bordering our booth and doing some cross-promotion with us.

And it's not just stuff being released at GenCon. Great Ork Gods is seeing a great deal of actual play. Raven's Orx are coming. I could go on and on. I see it more as a bit of a lull in the cycle than any sort of crisis.

[Jürgen Mayer]

Unfortunate Destinies MMIV

What's that?

[Dav]

Jurgen:

Unfortunate Destinies 2004 Collection.

"UDMMIV"

Dav

[andy]

The Forge has been also been instrumental in the development BONES the RPG, which I hope to have published electronically (at first) by the end of June.

Andy

[GB Steve]

Has not Ron stated repeatedly that the Actual Play forum is the MOST IMPORTANT FORUM on the board?

And lo! Ron spaketh. And what he said was good.

etc.

Sorry, couldn't resist, this being on the back of the Hubris thread.

I play Forge games. I'm not much of a fan of the boards, for the usual reasons, but there's no ignoring that a whole bunch of great games have started here. I buy pretty much all of them and I try to run them at conventions too.

I'm not sure the past laurels tag is warranted either. Indie Gaming does not die if the Forge (whatever that is) doesn't bring something out every two months. This sounds very similar to the claim that a game is dead if the publisher hasn't brought out any new supplements recently. Is chess dead?

So I just drop in from time to time, get a load of the latest pdfs and run some if I can. The best ones I also get in print format. Elfs is the latest, and jolly fun it looks too.