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You know, every so often someone says to me, "I want to run a game like Lord of the Rings," and proceeds to insert large, unpleasant battle scenes into his game for no discernible purpose.

Now, as I see it, old JRR had this burgeoning interest in history, and it was history that drove a lot of the events in his trilogy. It happens that RPG settings also tend to drip with history, but this history, in my experience, has never served an active role in play. At best, there's the occasional inn with a name like, "Waterloo" or "Cleopatra's Indiscretion".

I think that a whole lot of wasted energy is going into writing all this history bunk, just like all the wasted energy that goes into writing demographics bunk and culture bunk.

I would rather all this energy be channeled to some Actual Play purpose, so I'd like to discuss ways that game mechanics can incentivize the active use of historical (or cultural or whatever) facts, specifically predetermined historical facts, not ones that are retconned in order to justify various occurrences (While this is a rich and powerful approach, I'd like to exclude it from this discussion because I don't think it bears usefully on the point).

QuoteI think that a whole lot of wasted energy is going into writing all this history bunk, just like all the wasted energy that goes into writing demographics bunk and culture bunk.

Wow.  Harsh.  Is this a blanket condemnation of detailed game setting backstory?  Or are you reserving special scorn for detailed backstory that ends up having no relevance on actual play?  Or did I completely misinterpret you?

QuoteNow, as I see it, old JRR had this burgeoning interest in history, and it was history that drove a lot of the events in his trilogy.

and then...

QuoteI would rather all this energy be channeled to some Actual Play purpose, so I'd like to discuss ways that game mechanics can incentivize the active use of historical (or cultural or whatever) facts, specifically predetermined historical facts, not ones that are retconned in order to justify various occurrences (While this is a rich and powerful approach, I'd like to exclude it from this discussion because I don't think it bears usefully on the point).

Are you really interested in mechanics that incentivize use of established facts, or do you want to create actual play that conveys a sense of the power and relevence of history that is similar to what Tolkein produced?

The two are not necessarily the same thing.

Have you read any of the "History of Middle Earth" books?  The first book in particular, "Return of the Shadow", traces FotR from its earliest drafts as a Hobbit sequel through early iterations of the Moria sequence.  I think it's safe to say that Tolkien's "burgeoning interest" was in mythology and philology, not necessarily in history.  The drafts clearly show him throwing in the elements that he wanted to throw in, and then he retconned the history and backstory to make it all fit together.

Sure, the end result was a rich, cohesive body of history, in which the present seems like such an inevitable consequence of the past.  But that's because present and past were designed in tandem - present begat past begat a revision of the present begat a revision of the past.

One particularly wonderful game I was in fit this pattern - we started play with little to go on but an agreed-upon set of genre tropes, and after a few sessions of "adventure", players and GM alike started retroactively writing the history and mythology of the world.  Then, we found occasion to recount these histories *in character* (Characters inclined to tell stories + Players inclined to tell stories + Director Stance = serious creative mojo).

With that, we had the Present, and we had History, and we had OOC understandings of our characters' places in the history.  But perhaps most crucially, the players had understandings of the characters' "self-perceptions" with regard to that history; that is, our portrayals of our characters included having the characters understand their own place in history.  From there, the history didn't merely explain or jutify past actual-play events; players used it as a basis for future in-character decision-making.  The result was the most history-rich game I've ever taken part in.

Quote from: hanschristianandersenAre you really interested in mechanics that incentivize use of established facts, or do you want to create actual play that conveys a sense of the power and relevence of history that is similar to what Tolkein produced?

The two are not necessarily the same thing.

I'm thinking the second could best be accomplished by a variant of the Confessional from InSpectres: have a sketch of history, one-line statements like "the Foos beat the Bars at the battle of Whatchamacallit Creek"... the details are fleshed out in historic flashbacks, which set facts in the gameworld that the present-day heroes can use to their advantage.

for the first, you might want something like traits that represent strong feelings about historical events. this would provide bonuses in relevant conflicts. what I would do to make this special is have some kind of point-buy or "pick five traits" chargen, but for every background group you can select, there would be several "historical passions" that can be taken *for free*. thus, playing out your character's feelings about past events reinforces the ties between past and present.

Quote from: hanschristianandersen

QuoteI think that a whole lot of wasted energy is going into writing all this history bunk, just like all the wasted energy that goes into writing demographics bunk and culture bunk.

Wow.  Harsh.  Is this a blanket condemnation of detailed game setting backstory?  Or are you reserving special scorn for detailed backstory that ends up having no relevance on actual play?  Or did I completely misinterpret you?

Well, it is a blanket condemnation of setting backstory, but with special scorn applied to the irrelevance that it has in play - and I'm more concerned about that latter aspect. The fact that I think setting backstory is generally useless is exactly what drove me to start this topic - I am hoping to prove to myself that it can be rewarding and useful.

QuoteAre you really interested in mechanics that incentivize use of established facts, or do you want to create actual play that conveys a sense of the power and relevence of history that is similar to what Tolkein produced?

The first. T. was just an example, and as you point out, perhaps not a very apt one. Ideally, I'd like to obtain the effect (power and relevance of history) through the use of the technique (use of established facts).

John, if I understand you correctly you're saying that you could effectively use established setting facts as a frame for sub-facts that are created in play, and these sub-facts contribute to play in some mechanical manner (like Confessional-derived traits). I think that partly addresses the issue, but ideally I'd like to construct a system where there is no introduction of facts in play. In some unheard-of realm of perfection, I'd like such a system to be more or less freeform; with little preparation, it could be grafted onto any source of historical data and produce output instantly.

I think that your second idea could address the less idealistic version of this admirably. HQ works something like that, if I'm not mistaken...hm.

Setting aside the most obvious challenge that comes to mind (namely getting all the players sufficiently up to speed w.r.t. the history)...

Why can't you apply something like the InSpectres confessional, but instead of using it to invent new details, you use it as part of the scene framing, to draw attention to some specific relevant historical details, and then grant mechanical bonuses to the players when they interact with the confessional-spotlighted historical elements?

An example of how this might work in play:  The characters are examining the loot from a troll's lair.  "These are swords crafted in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars!" exclaims Thorin; Thorin's player uses his Confessional to recall the history of Gondolin and the Goblin Wars.  Note that Thorin's player isn't inventing that history; rather, he's recalling the history, and in doing so inventing a relevance to the current context. (i.e. the newly found swords.)  Ergo, next time the party is bashing Goblins, they derive a bonus.

A less director-stance-heavy example:  The characters are entering Rome, during Rome's decline.  A player uses his Confessional to recall how Rome was "Once fair, but after disastrous Nero's rule, is now but a shadow of its former glory, filled with desperate thieves and ruffians.  We had best keep one hand on our weapons, and the other on our purses."  Ergo, the party gets bonuses to detect or avoid thieves, pickpockets, and ruffians, above and beyond any bonuses from simply being cautious, by virtue of invoking history.  Again, the key is invoking history rather than inventing it.

Y'know, the whole "players establish historical facts through an Inspectres-style confessional" thing (besides being really neat in and of itself) could be a lot of fun for a TIME TRAVEL game, where you establish a "future" and then retcon the past....

I've got this on the brain because of Nathan P.'s time travel game being discussed in Indie Game Design (over here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11169).

I increasingly found the treatment of history in dnd odd-all that exploring of ancient buildings/dungeons from lost empires with little or no real sense of why 'x' empires dungeon was different to 'y's. They almost had a go with some of the books for Forgotten Realms but made all the key info current rather historical-the Netheril stuff could have made a great historical basis for dungeons though (and I used it as such-never actually as a current campaign setting).
I guess that because I am interested in history and archaeology, I find the idea of fleshing out those pesky dungeons with a rich historical texture compelling-so you find 1000gp-but how many are coins from the reign of Emperor Impeltrix III? Cause those are rare and collectors pay more for them-after all his reign obly lasted for four weeks before he was assinated. Oh my gosh-theres an adventure in that-what else might be in that horde from his reign? A clue to how and why he died? All those historians sponsoring the players dungeon exploits would just love to know-at last the mystery can be solved, etc, etc.

Its all in the details-little things adventurers might come across that give the historical flavour and context-what armour is that? Pre-dynamist mage armour? Cool, but not very good. Ah! A Mulong dynasty vase-thats nice, I'll put that in my trophy room. I did a long exploration of a Mulong trap tomb last year-dangerous, but the burial chamber was so beautifull and I came out with the long lost jade dragon of Emperor Fu-loong-tek. That sort of thing. Tomb raider/relic hunters meets dnd.

The same sort of approach can easily fit elsewhere. I think people tend to forget history in many creative works-they think 'current' in whatever time period/setting they use when it comes to how things look and feel. How often do you see someone in a costume drama on TV that is old and wearing the fashions of their youth? Hardly ever-because the costume department is fixed in its vision on the period of the setting and has forgotten that some people never move well with the times. Even though it says a bundle about the character that they haven't...

Most rpgs confine history to a chronology and leave it at that.
A pity-because to my mind atmosphere and depth often come by going deeper into it.

Dunno about the lead statement.  My campaign drips with history.

I've got 13th Tribe Elves (think jewish drow crossed with orc mongols) who were exiled, returning.  I've got the legacy of a mad god, who died 700 yrs ago, keep popping up.  I've got RIGHT now a campaign to rebuild a fallen "shining city on the hill".  I have 3 countries dealing with a slave revolt, based on centuries of slave economy.  I have a PC who was put into suspended animation (now awoken) to secure his peoples homeland when it was safe.  Historical events impact and keep impacting current storylines.

All of these subplots are feeding what information I give to the players and gives the players a chance to react to history of the world through their characters.  

I have two actual classcial trained historians in my game.  One is a professor of medieval history.  They are engaged.  They like the amount of backstory that has evolved.  I've got a couple of other players, who may not be historians, but have a historically minded bent.  All I can say, is that it works for us.

What happens when I'm not sure as a GM what is historical flavor SHOULD be, I simply ask the opinion of my players.  I don't feel the need for a mechanic.  I am quite willing to hear players opinion and flavor insertion... subject to clarification and modification at times.

We had a great discussion on whether or not a PC Baron could take a bunch of cows from a subject in order to feed a flock of gryphons.  Not that he was going to... he was going to pay for the cattle... but the player was interested in IF he could do it, so he had an understanding of how progressive he might be pushing the Baron. (the Baron is part of a silver rush/ trade crossroads province, he could afford it)  The professor actually had considerable info to add, since land and power in medieval Europe is one of his specialties.

You're very lucky to have historians in your play group, Storn.

So, how can groups not like yours use mechanics to get the same historical consciousness in their games?

Quote from: Shreyas SampatSo, how can groups not like yours use mechanics to get the same historical consciousness in their games?

I think John's suggestion of "historical backstory confessionals" is a good one, if you asked me...

It wouldn't even have to set up an advantage for the PCs to be used, just so it added something to the scene. It could be used to set up a conflict, for example, but creating context for an insult the PC is about to hurl.

Hi, Shreyas.  Cool question.

I'm recalling the magic rules in Orkworld, where each magic item has an associated story--its own personal history--and the events that imbued the item with magic dictate what sort of magic it has. I think Wick assumes that the GM is the one to come up with these stories, but he doesn't specify how the players are supposed to become aware of them. I'll have to reread that section (I'd better, as I'm runnin the game @ Origins!)

Here's an idea I had that I don't really like, but someone else might. This borrows from Continuum. The advancement mechanic relies on real-world requirements of the players. They have to memorize and recite a set of in-game rules verbatim before their character's Span stat can increase. To move this to history, you could require players to recite some portion of the written history before their characters enter a city or some-such. But that relies more on the stick than on the carrot.

Using the carrot, I have another idea. In LotR, Aragorn's always making these speeches about being Isildiur's Heir and all that. Well, similar to the role-playing bonus in Sorcerer, give folks a bonus for incorporating setting history into their play.

Additionally, if you have one of those big thick game books that has pages and pages of history (I'm thinking of games like Earthdawn or Fading Suns here), then you can encourage GMs to craft their plots around historical details and open historical questions as listed in the history section. Once one of the players decides they're going to research the roots of the problem, the GM hands them the game book and says "Page 55, third paragraph." If you do this, the player is reading through books just like his character! Life imitating art.

Quote from: Shreyas SampatYou're very lucky to have historians in your play group, Storn.

So, how can groups not like yours use mechanics to get the same historical consciousness in their games?

I don't know.  And I think it depends on the campaign.  Obviously, a merchant trading campaign in the democratic City State of Sarajevo circa 800 is going to require some research and historical acumen.  But a d20 (abstracted and averaged) fantasy campaign?  It helps, but it isn't necessary.

I don't think mechanics is a solvent for the problem.  I put forth to you all that a 21st century gamer, who professes a noninterest in history, knows a heck lot more history than they think they do.  So, asking a player's opinion on "what do you think the Legend of X" should be, should get a response.  Sans mechanic.  

some of what Miller is suggesting is a Reward, not a mechanic in of itself.  Splitting hairs, it could be a Reward Mechanic... so maybe its a mechanic.  Talked myself outta that one.

Bare bones mechanic... some sorta Lore skill, if it is rolled, the GM tells the Player about some aspect of the campaign's history, usually tied in with what is at hand in the story.

Quotespecifically predetermined historical facts

I think this is the problem statement.  It requires a lot of GM work to come up with specific predetermined historical fact.  

If you are looking for some kind of social contract construct beyond what I've described in my game to allow Players to do it.... wow.... y'got me.

Quote from: Shreyas SampatJohn, if I understand you correctly you're saying that you could effectively use established setting facts as a frame for sub-facts that are created in play, and these sub-facts contribute to play in some mechanical manner (like Confessional-derived traits). I think that partly addresses the issue, but ideally I'd like to construct a system where there is no introduction of facts in play. In some unheard-of realm of perfection, I'd like such a system to be more or less freeform; with little preparation, it could be grafted onto any source of historical data and produce output instantly.

What I do is mine history and cultural setting for conflict to use in-game. Frex, I'm in a campaign set in Hungary (setting:Ars Magica) in the early 13th century.  We're right on the line where the Mongols invaded, blasted everything in their way, and then retreated back to decide who the next Khan should be after Ghengis kicked the bucket.  Like a wave hitting our sand-castle and then racing back to the sea.  

I'm looking forward to playing out how we, our friends and our enemies are affected. Also to determining how it changes local and order politics.  We very successfully used Otherkind dice in the past when involved in a war--having our player characters interact on the tactical level, establishing local stakes (could we avoid getting killed and help protect the young men from our neighboring village with whom we fought side by side?) and battle-wide stakes (would our side win)--though in large part I believe the latter was determined by simple negotiation based on our consensus descriptions of the turn of events.

For a generic system, I'd suggest the following structure:

[*]Take a historical battle/cultural conflict.
[*]Establish who the stakeholders are (groups and individuals).
[*]Establish the stakes.
[*]Create pcs on either side in a situation that places them personally at risk, and in a position to influence the stakes of the larger events.
[*]Play out events, tieing them in to the larger goals of the groups of which they are a part.[/list:u]
HeroQuest does this by connecting player characters to various groups that have stakes in the conflict.  Then once the conflict is identified it is taken to the Spirit realm (what's it called again?) where its Fate is decided by heros. They essentially function as champions of the various folks on the mundane plane.

Given the fixed nature of real-world history, I would lean toward playing out a situation at the tactical level that exemplifies the larger conflict.  Not nec. "the decisive incident" itself.  That way you're not locked in to having to portray RW events exactly as they occurred. Instead, your play is informed by the passionate opposition existing in history, but not limited by it.

Can you imagine playing out parts of the Civil Rights struggle like this?

yrs,
Em

Guys, this is not what Shreyas is asking. Emily, he knows how to mine history for ideas to use in game.

Let me break it down like this:

Most established commercial games come with a setting in which to play. Often the setting has a lot of detailed background information - history in other words. Think like V:TM; you know how the first couple of chapters have a whole lot of info about what the vampires have been doing for the last couple of thousand years?

Same goes for D&D and GURPS, and so on, even though these games tend to have plug-in-able modular settings.

Now, these same games also have a mechanical component that does not reference the accompanying historical material in any way whatsoever. What Shreyas wants is a game that mechanically encourages the players to do the data mining you describe. Instead of just having a game and a bunch of setting crap to go with it, the game needs to mechanically encourage the players to reference the included setting material.

I think. Right Shreyas? :)

Quote from: Paganini
Now, these same games also have a mechanical component that does not reference the accompanying historical material in any way whatsoever. What Shreyas wants is a game that mechanically encourages the players to do the data mining you describe. Instead of just having a game and a bunch of setting crap to go with it, the game needs to mechanically encourage the players to reference the included setting material.

I don't know how to make canned setting so inviting that all the players feel free to riff of it, but I have an idea for how to make pregen setting in a way that all of the players have enough of an authorship stake in the material that they will feel confident using it as the basis for their improvisation: build the setting using a Lexicon. The basic trick behind Lexicon is that it requires, as part of the game mechanics, that the stuff that someone writes has to both reference and be cross-referenced by the entries other participants write. The process of cross-reference is designed specifically to break down the reluctance to "play with the other authors' toys".

IIRC, Jere was involved in a game that worked this way. Jere?