TROS is Greece

[ZenDog]

Here's something I've been toying with for Savage Worlds, not sure if these idea's would translate to TRoS but it's kind of relevant.


Title: Pantheon

Genre: Heroic Fantasy

Description: Pantheon is a world of Heroic Greek fantasy, concerning itself more with the adventures of heroes than the politics of the city states. The world of Pantheon is not historical Greece.

All the PC's in Pantheon are humans who, instead of starting with a free edge, start with either of the Arcane Backgrounds 'Godling' or 'Hero'. A Godling is the offspring of a God and a mortal, whilst a Hero is one who is favoured, and cursed by the Gods in equal measure.

Godlings' have gifts (Edges and Powers) corresponding to the Godly parent, who will also act on their behalf, but jealous Gods may oppose them.

Heroes are favoured by all the Gods. Heroes may invoke any God at any time they wish, and the God will come to their aid.

The favour of the Gods is not without its price. The Pantheon are a jealous lot and their relationships are fraught with tension and conflict.

The more his immortal parent helps a Godling, the more resentful the other Gods become. The more favour a Hero shows one God, the more displeasure the rival Gods take.

Angry Gods may oppose Heroes or Godlings, in many ways. Through their earthly minions, be they monstrous or mundane, or through forces of fate and nature.

Godling gifts are dependant on who their immortal parent is and are a permanent boon. Heroes on the other hand must invoke a particular God when they require help.

Example: Kleitos is travelling the Isthmus Road when he is attacked by bandits, he is out numbered six to one, fearing for his life he invokes Ares God of war. Ares answers his call and Kleitos is suddenly imbued with the power of Ares, growing in stature and glowing with Olympian might.

Invocation of Ares:
Powers: Boost: Strength, Fighting and Intimidate by one die type, Lower: Spirit and Guts by one die type, Smite
Edges: Improved Frenzy, Improved Sweep
Hindrances: Bloodthirsty, Mean, Vengeful.
Weakness: Ares is a coward and a bully if the character possessed by Ares is wounded or shaken by another God possessed Wildcard, Ares will flee, running to Zeus in Olympus, where he will complain of the injustice of his wounding.

After a God has been invoked and helped the character, the God normally returns to Olympus, however sometimes they stick around and cause mayhem (random event type table?). Stay or go, there is always a price to pay once a God has been invoked.

A cornucopia of adventure.

The world of Pantheon is a world packed full of excitement and danger, and there is certainly plenty for Heroes to do. Questing on behalf of Gods, warring for city-states, or against the barbarians, or just travelling the known world, and beyond, clearing the Isthmus Road of bandits, looking for golden fleeces and slaying the fierce Minotaur.

There are many weird and wonderful creatures (and people) in the world of Pantheon. Some are numerous like the Centaurs, and satyrs, other are few in number like the Cyclopes and Gorgons. Others like the fabled Minotaur are singular. Once you have slain a solitary creature that's it, it is gone from the world (unless of course someone were to find and open a certain box belonging to certain lady).

Oh and one more thing, don't let the Centaurs at the wine.

Notes: I'm quite taken by this setting and might work it up some more. Not sure about the Godlings (don't like the name for a start). I like the way the Heroes can favour and invoke lots of different Gods. I may remove the Godlings later.


Back on topic I think TRoS would work very well for a Troy game possibly even better for a game set during the period of the warring city states.

[Andrew Mure]

This is a period I've thought about before as good for TROS. I'll share some of my ideas.

The time I'd be looking at in particular would BC 1200-900 and the region would be the eastern meditterrean. The other thing would be the cultural metaplot as I would like involve other peoples of this period other than the Mycenean greeks (the Isrealites and Egyptians in particular present plenty of good potential). As such I am determined that no people in the setting holds the absolute truth about the very shadowy gods, whose exact number is unknown and may have many names. One thing is known and that is that the gods are at war in the heavens and that they use mortals to fight their battles on earth...

The peoples I was thinking for the setting.

Egyptians - the somewhat waning superpower of the setting. Better starting wealth.
Hittites (includes the Trojans) - Are the best charioteers of the setting.
Isrealites - of the Book of Judges and start of Kings. Free profiency point in slinging and an extra point of Faith if they designate Yahwah.
Mycenean Greeks (also known as the Sea people and the Philistines)- Free profiency point in spear + shield, -1 on sailing, extra point in Destiny SA if Seneschal judges the destiny to be double edged.
Phoenicians (also known as the Canaanites) - Excellent traders, but worshippers of the bloodthristy Baal. +1 soc -1 on trade and sailing. Minor bad reputation towards individuals who see all Phoenicians as condoning human sacrifice.

Possibles

Babylon
Assyria
Minoean Greeks (also known as Atlanteans)
Numibian


Races

Blessed of the Gods- these are the ilk of Achilles, Samson and Gilgamesh, etc.
Servants of the Gods- These are the more human sized monsters of mythology such as nymphs, satyrs, the Minotaur and centaurs. It also represents the more human heroes.
Oracles, Magi and seers- The human gifted.


To work on - rules for fighting from a chariot.

[contracycle]

Isrealites - of the Book of Judges and start of Kings. Free profiency point in slinging and an extra point of Faith if they designate Yahwah.
...
Phoenicians (also known as the Canaanites) - Excellent traders, but worshippers of the bloodthristy Baal. +1 soc -1 on trade and sailing. Minor bad reputation towards individuals who see all Phoenicians as condoning human sacrifice.

Probably both the later Phoenicians and the Israelites are subsets of 'Canaanite', but there are many opinions on this.  I'm not sure its appropriate to assume Baal was unusually bloodthirsty for the period.  Further, this prejudice against Phoenicians is probably Greek and later reproduced by the Romans (who employed it to justify the Punic wars) and so projectiung this back to the Mycenean might be inappropriate.

Mycenean Greeks (also known as the Sea people and the Philistines)-

Now those are both really contentious.  I'm not averse to the Sea People being the Myceneans, but its much disputed.  The Phoenicians are another candidate.

Egyptians - the somewhat waning superpower of the setting. Better starting wealth.

The Egyptians were also renowned for being the most religiously sophisticated state in this period, and into the Roman period.

Babylon
Assyria

Yes, whatever mesopotomian power is ascendent in the period would need to be there.

Numibian

I think you mean Numidians.  I'm not sure they were noticeable until the later Carthaginian society employed them, but this was after the colonisation of the North African coast.  at this time Phoenician settlements are probably limited to the Levant and Cyprus.

[Valamir]

Mycenean Greeks (also known as the Sea people and the Philistines)-

Interesting connections.  I am far more familiar with the Phoenicians being the "sea people".  I've never heard of them being possibly Greek.  Likewise I've never even remotely heard of the Greeks being associated with the Philistines.

Do you have a source for that or is it a connection you've devised for purposes of the game world?

[tetsujin28]

Im not familiar with that system or game.  Whats the gist of it?

Really? Wow. Um, where to start.

I can't think of a game designer who's made a game with peronality mechanics (ok, any honest ones) that wasn't influened by Greg Stafford's Pendragon.
Pendragon is now owned by Green Knight. The Green Knight website is here. Normally I can talk all day about Pendragon, since I worked on some of it, but I had exams today and my hands are killing me.

[tetsujin28]

Mycenean Greeks (also known as the Sea people and the Philistines)-

Interesting connections.  I am far more familiar with the Phoenicians being the "sea people".  I've never heard of them being possibly Greek.  Likewise I've never even remotely heard of the Greeks being associated with the Philistines.

Do you have a source for that or is it a connection you've devised for purposes of the game world?

Well, Oliver Dickenson would never buy that.

[tetsujin28]

After seeing the movie Troy (which, by the way, I thought was excellent)

OK, now that I can't help you with ;-)

[Andrew Mure]

Mycenean Greeks (also known as the Sea people and the Philistines)-

Interesting connections.  I am far more familiar with the Phoenicians being the "sea people".  I've never heard of them being possibly Greek.  Likewise I've never even remotely heard of the Greeks being associated with the Philistines.

Do you have a source for that or is it a connection you've devised for purposes of the game world?

*Shruggs* Well there's bound to be a fair bit of debate about this period of history, mainly because most of the first person evidence is written under a time of stress and it is hard to separate fact from myth.

No one knows for sure exactly where the 'Sea people' came from, certainly not the Egyptian scribes who wrote tales about them. I have chosen the Myceneans to be the main grouping amongst the 'Sea Peoples' for a number of reasons.

1) Firstly the socialogical situation in Greece at the time resulting from the death throws of Mycenae civilisation had created a large number of dispossessed people hailing from a warlike culture. These refugees had a motive to go raiding and try and grab other people's lands.

2) The Myceneans also had the naval technology to mount such a raid, due to having learnt it from the Minoaens of Crete when their civilisation collapsed following the eruption of Santurini around 1450 BC.

3) The city believed to be Troy was a vassal state of the Hittite Empire, which was destroyed by the 'Sea People'. Incidently the events of the Illiad are traditionally dated at the same period as the height of the raids of the enigmatic 'Sea People'.

4) Neither Egyptian nor Hittite sources make any reference to the Mycenean civilisation. They are aware of the Baal worshiping Canaanites and the Phoenicians who later spring from them as both powers have been fighting over these lands. The Sea People are warlike strangers from across the sea.

5) There is no reference to 'Sea People' who ravaged the entire eastern Meditterrean coastline of the 'Fertile cresent' outside of Egyptian or Hittite records. Yet centuries later the Greeks are telling this tale how they 'launched a thousand ships' to go to war in the same area.


Of course this is all circumstantial evidence, but I reckon the Myceneans are a pretty strong suspect. The case for the Philistines being Mycenean is a weaker one and hangs mainly on the Myceneans also being the 'Sea people'.

The Old Testement makes no reference to the 'Sea People' despite them raiding lands which the Isrealites claimed as their own. Likewise it mentions the Philistines when no other sources do not and makes a clear distinction between them and the Phoenicians.

However my main interest in getting the tie in for the background is the 'supermen' warriors who appear on both sides in the battles between the Isrealites and the Philistines. Especially a certain philistine champion feared by all in battle who is killed a missile.

[Turin]

Of course this is all circumstantial evidence, but I reckon the Myceneans are a pretty strong suspect. The case for the Philistines being Mycenean is a weaker one and hangs mainly on the Myceneans also being the 'Sea people'.

I've read the pottery types among other archaeological evidence seems to link the Philistines to the Mycenaeans.  I also think I recall reading somewhere that in addition to defeating the sea peoples, something was negotiated for them to take the lands the Philistines inhabit.  The info is a bit hazy, please forgive my vagueness.

I have also read that the "look" of the sea peoples was similar to Celts of that period.

The other thing is there seems to be frequent mention of "blonde" myceneans, which does not seem to be similar to most medtiterreanean peoples.

Makes me wonder- I wonder if the "Greek" Myceneans could have been Celtic people who moved into the greek peninsula, and were later absorbed/forced out by the greek dark ages Doric invasions?  Some things seem to fit.  No written language, warlike, bronze age wepaoncrafting, chariots used in warfare...

Of course, the people now inhabiting greece are probably not a good example of even classical greek bloodlines, with turks, slavs, romans, etc mixing with the original population.

[Valthalion]

Makes me wonder- I wonder if the "Greek" Myceneans could have been Celtic people who moved into the greek peninsula, and were later absorbed/forced out by the greek dark ages Doric invasions?  Some things seem to fit.  No written language, warlike, bronze age wepaoncrafting, chariots used in warfare...

Actually the Mycaneans did have written language called Linear B.  They clearly learnt the symbols from the Minoans (Linear A)  The script was syllabic and had about 100 characters.  The only writing found is in the destruction levels of Mycenean cities,  were they used clay tablets to inscribe basically their accounting system.  The tablets would have things like tripods 3 on them.  Rather famously an ex WWII cryptographer discovered that it was all written in Greek.  The Myceneans were Greeks. After the great destructions about 1200 BC (Possibly because of the eruption of Thera) they lost the ability to write. Then they relearnt it after the dark ages, using a Phonecian alphabet, not too different from the Latin one we use.

Valthalion

[Valthalion]

Mycenean Greeks (also known as the Sea people and the Philistines)-

Interesting connections.  I am far more familiar with the Phoenicians being the "sea people".  I've never heard of them being possibly Greek.  Likewise I've never even remotely heard of the Greeks being associated with the Philistines.

Do you have a source for that or is it a connection you've devised for purposes of the game world?

Don't confuse the fact that the Phoenicans were the great seagoing nation of the ancient world and the concept of the earlier "sea people" the warlike raiders who appeared in the 12 Century BC ravaging their more civilised neighbours.  The Phoenican lands bordered the Philistine lands and they don't seem to be the same people. The Philistines were quite unique.  The theory that they were Mycanean Greeks is a long established one, with considerable evidence.  

However don't forget how little evidence there is.  In the 19th century one of the proofs that the Bible was incorrect was that it mentioned the Hittites (who weren't mentioned anywhere else) Until the excavation of Boghazköy the civilisation was unknown. (Although they have found that they had very destructive wars with the Egyptians now)

No-one else mentions the Myceneans but they were clearly there.  With large numbers of sites excavated.  Who the Trojans are is immensely debatable.  Whether they were subject to the Hittites or not is difficult.  

The historical setting game is difficult. However for the mythological game there are a lot of Greek myths.

[Valthalion]

Mycenean Greeks (also known as the Sea people and the Philistines)-

Interesting connections.  I am far more familiar with the Phoenicians being the "sea people".  I've never heard of them being possibly Greek.  Likewise I've never even remotely heard of the Greeks being associated with the Philistines.

Do you have a source for that or is it a connection you've devised for purposes of the game world?

Well, Oliver Dickenson would never buy that.

I assume you mean Oliver Dickinson author the "The Aegean Bronze Age" rather than the author of Glorantha. Unless they are the same person!!!!

It seems to me that a translator of Akkadian could help in the Bronze Age age cultures of the Middle East.

Regards

Valthalion
Knight Against Chaos

[bergh]

OK

Mykenian (spelling), from 1650 BC - 800 BC
Hellenic: 800BC - 338BC
Hellenistic:  338BC - 148BC

That Dark age, when was that?

and when was Greek Bronze age?

[toli]

OK

Mykenian (spelling), from 1650 BC - 800 BC
Hellenic: 800BC - 338BC
Hellenistic:  338BC - 148BC

That Dark age, when was that?

and when was Greek Bronze age?

I could be totally off, but if I remember correctly:

Mycenean ~1600 to 1200
Dark age 1200 - 800
Classical Greece ~600 - 350
Hellenistic ~350 to 150

I believe the dark age is the period of the Dorian invasions when new racial groups entered Greece.  

Illiad is Mycenean or Dark age
Persian Wars and Peloponesean wars are classical greece
Phillip II and Alexander the Great are Hellenistic (no really greek but sort of greek...)

NT

[Valthalion]

OK

Mykenian (spelling), from 1650 BC - 800 BC
Hellenic: 800BC - 338BC
Hellenistic:  338BC - 148BC

Spelling wise there are two schools of thought First traditionally Greek spelling passes through Latin into English.  (This is why Greek u becomes y in English) So Mycenean istead of Mukenian.  Hercules rather than Heracles.  The other school says we should transliterate directly from Greek.  The secret is to be consistent one way or the other.  

That Dark age, when was that?

The Greek Dark Age is from the destruction of the Mycenean empire until the discovery of writing about 600 BC  It is called the dark age because there was a population decrease,  destruction and poverty, but  mostly because there was no writing.  Scholars divide the age into subsections based on pottery types.  (Geometric etc)

and when was Greek Bronze age?

The Bronze age starts with the discovery of bronze at the end of the stone age (about 3000BC) until the discovery of iron (about 1100 BC)