The Forge Archives

I've followed the Forge preparations for GenCon, and came to consider an interesting thought: during 23.-25. of July we have in Finland the biggest northern roleplaying convention, Ropecon. I don't know how it compares to American cons, but there'll likely be over three thousand people coming from all over Finland. John Kovalic, Erick Wujcik and Emma Wieslander (of Mellan Himmel och Hav fame, a swedish larpsmith), too.

Now, Finnish cons traditionally are hobby oriented, with mostly lectures and play. There is however room for merchants as well, and I was thinking of becoming one: there's a tradition among Finnish activists of getting in free instead of paying (a matter of pride), through GMing, selling tickets, keeping lectures or other more imaginative means. I was going to organize a larp, but came to think that I could as well try something I haven't done ever: get a spread of games from my friends in the Forge and sell those.

The roleplaying scene in Finland is relatively traditional sim, so I'd say that there is a clear place for more innovative designs. I've written about the possibilities, but being that the retailer system is a little one-sided, games do not spread too fast. Ropecon would thus be a great place to build up awareness.

I was thinking of getting some of the best games of Forge and hawking them with a couple of friends. Sellers do not get in free, but GMs do, so we'd all run sessions of the games in question, too (which we'd be doing probably anyway). This'd be for a modest profit (to cover the bother and mixed expenses), so I'd try to garner the games with some kind of discount off the cover price. Essentially similar to Luke's Forge East, except we don't have a con circuit here in Finland, so it's not viable to pay the games afterwards (I'll be selling any leftovers though other channels, though). This'd not be any significant profit for either me or the publisher, but at least it's a step ahead in building awareness of our work.

I'll be contacting personally some of the people who's games I'd especially like to have. I'm talking maybe some half a dozen copies per game, with a suitable discount (considering postage, of course). If someone is interested, go ahead and PM me. Any questions can of course be asked here, and if anybody has any pointers on what to consider with this kind of undertaking, I'll be interested to hear. I'm not exactly the veteran in this kind of thing, especially as no-one has done it in Finland before.

Well, I've put out my little birds to gather (hopefully) interested publishers. I'm trying to dicker with each furiously to get some discounts from the prices (I'm a retailer, after all, am I not?). If you have not been contacted and have a great game, it's probably because I forgot about you. No disrespect intented, and you have to just remind me of your existence.

Now, what I'll have to figure out next is the cheapest way to get the games to Finland. I'll be operating as a company, so there'll be customs in addition to postage. If it wasn't clear from my enquiry, I think that the postage is very much my problem. After all, if you don't have to pay it, you can give me a bigger discount ;)

This being the case, does anybody have experience with shipping from USA to Finland (yes, as of yet all games I've asked are american)? The convention is in ten weeks, so the slowest land mail is probably not an option, or is it? More pertinently, would gathering all the games I'm ordering to one place and mailing them in one big package lower the cost as compared to getting individual parcels from each publisher? Would someone take the responsibility of intercepting the packages, repackaging and sending them off? We're talking about a dozen games from each publisher.

After getting the mailing and paying hassles away from underfoot I'd like to get any sales material the publishers might have for their games. I'll be writing some Finnish bullet lists, flyers and other stuff, and any already existing text and picture material you have will be appreciated and will lessen the work.

Hey Eero, you can find US international postage rates here although you'll have to calculate the weight in pounds (God bless the imperial system :-)

Looks like 5 pounds (2 1/4 kg) will run about $23 airmail.  Surface is only a couple of dollars cheaper and takes delivery from days to weeks.

10 pounds will run about $37 although now surface rates are more significantly cheaper.

20 pounds (9kg) will run about $66 with surface (4-6 weeks) being half that.

For reference 1 Universalis book (86 pages half size) weighs about 5 ounces (141 grams).  A dozen puts it about 3.75 pounds

Oh, the agony of fiddling with the post office! And in pounds, no less.

It seems that there is a significant lessening in price with bigger packages. As I'm currently hoping to get well over fifty game books, I'll be paying quite generously if each publisher ships independently.

We'll wait for a couple of days now, so that all the people I've offered this deal to get a chance to answer. When I know how many books we're talking about we can calculate how much different shipping options would cost, and decide on one.

In the meantime, I'd value it if the people from whom I'm going to buy books would weight them and calculate how much my order from them will weight.

If all the games together will weight some 30 pounds (a rough estimate, no idea really) and I get six publishers with under 5 pounds each, I'll be paying either about 120$ for individual shipment, or 180$ for air mailing them all together, or 40$ for surface shipment. The bulk airmail seems to be out anyway, so it's a question of individual air mail against bulk surface mail.

The cons of the surface mail are time and the bother and expence of packaging the games in america. The post office seems to promise surface mail in 4-6 weeks, does anyone have experience on if this is accurate? The convention is in nine weeks, and if we get the games collected and sent in two, there's a week of marginal even. [ominous trumpets and drums]Can post office be trusted?[/ominous trumpets and drums]

In any case there's the expence of mailing the games inside USA, and the bother of someone packaging them. Any volunteers? If there's not, we'll obviously go with air mail. I'm of course paying the in-country postage in this scheme, but there's not much I can offer to anyone who'd care to repackage the games for me. I can promise their game the best advertising space in the booth, though :)

Eero -

A number of Forge publishers will be getting together at DexCon on the 14th of July; that might be an opportunity for us to put together an airmail package for you that would combine a number of different games.

The list of games that are expected to be at DexCon according to this thread included:

Masters and Minions (Horde Book 1)
Burning Wheel
Bad Muthas
Bulldogs!
Kill Puppies for Satan
Tools of Magick

I'm very excited about gaining international exposure for our work! Thanks for creating this opportunity.

Quote from: Tav_Behemoth
A number of Forge publishers will be getting together at DexCon on the 14th of July; that might be an opportunity for us to put together an airmail package for you that would combine a number of different games.

That's a nice idea, except that Ropecon is 23th of July, so there's not enough time at that date. If we're to package the games I'm ordering, it has to happen during the next couple of weeks to get the packet into snailmail.

Airmail parcel post would require 4-10 business days, which might be cutting it a little close, but global express mail would definitely be there in time (3-5 days). Depending on how many games you were combining, it might still be cost-effective to use these faster shipping options.

Eero is talking about a fairly large (and heavy) package.

It's too bad, because I could easily get to Dexcon to meet up with people one day (I can't do the whole convention, because life took a strange turn around here a few weeks back, but for something like this I could pop up--indeed, if Vincent and Luke are going to be there, I'd love to come for lunch one day if they've got time). But it's too late.

Anyway, it was a good idea.

--M. J. Young

Quote from: Eero TuovinenAfter getting the mailing and paying hassles away from underfoot I'd like to get any sales material the publishers might have for their games. I'll be writing some Finnish bullet lists, flyers and other stuff, and any already existing text and picture material you have will be appreciated and will lessen the work.

One option you might want to consider is to contact the already existing re-sellers (aka. Fantasiapelit) and see if you could set up a deal with them. I've seen at least one of the games around Forge (Sorcerer) being in the shelves and they'd be able to order at least some of the games through normal distribution channels. I don't know how they'll feel about re-selling products ordered and bought through them, though - at least it would be worth to ask, since that way you could avoid the hassle with postages and especially with the customs.

Personally, I'd think you have a fairly good change of selling the stuff if you manage to market the games to the local rpg-theory enthusiastics.

M.J. Young has voiced a willingness to handle gathering the games in the US! Assuming that we get the the system cleared up, I'll be doleing out payments for the books soon. The books will be sent to mr. Young, who will repack them and ship them out with his pile of Multiverser. I'm hoping we can move with alacrity, as land mail will take it's time.

For reference, here's the games and the people who have thus far answered my requests for games:
Ron Edwards / Sorcerer and Elfs
Luke Crane / Burning Wheel
Ralph Mazza / Universalis
M.J. Young / Multiverser
If you are not on the list, it's because you haven't answered my request (or I've failed to send it). If you are, I will contact you personally to find out what we are exactly owing for the books, to set up payment method (probably credit card through Paypal or some such) and to give the address for shipping. This will happen when I get the address myself. As far as I'm concerned, we can take additional games from the people I've asked them from as long as they can make it to the shipment, which I hope will leave US this week or at the start of the next one at the latest. So if you're interested, now's the time.

Quote from: Merten
One option you might want to consider is to contact the already existing re-sellers (aka. Fantasiapelit) and see if you could set up a deal with them. I've seen at least one of the games around Forge (Sorcerer) being in the shelves and they'd be able to order at least some of the games through normal distribution channels. I don't know how they'll feel about re-selling products ordered and bought through them, though - at least it would be worth to ask, since that way you could avoid the hassle with postages and especially with the customs.

Nah, many of the games we're after aren't in distribution, or at least distributed by anyone Tudeers buy from. I've too seen Sorcerer in Fantasiapelit some time ago, but afaik it's not been reordered after I bought the last one. Anyway, I couldn't expect to impose on a retailer to work as a distributor for myself without compensation, compensation which cannot be afforted.

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Personally, I'd think you have a fairly good change of selling the stuff if you manage to market the games to the local rpg-theory enthusiastics.

That's the strategy, all right. I'll also borrow heavily from Forge marketing know-how to the extent possible with limited man-power, setting up demostration games and such to generate awareness. Wanna come pimp books in Ropecon, by the way?

Quote from: Eero TuovinenThat's the strategy, all right. I'll also borrow heavily from Forge marketing know-how to the extent possible with limited man-power, setting up demostration games and such to generate awareness. Wanna come pimp books in Ropecon, by the way?

Running demonstration games in convention is hell (well, not running them, but getting good enough players is, nowadays), but I'm currently pondering about running Dead Inside this year. It's not in the list and not exactly from Forge, but at least it's indie.

Can I take the easy way out and mention the games and your stand on certain mailing lists where some of the local theory folks subscribe?  To really pimp the games, I'd have to read them, which I can only do after Ropecon, when I've bought them.

One good way to gain recognition would be to present a lecture (or panel discussion) about the indie game design, theory or the games themselves. It's also lot easier to describe the games to auditorium full of people than to talk each one of them individually.

Quote from: Merten
Running demonstration games in convention is hell (well, not running them, but getting good enough players is, nowadays), but I'm currently pondering about running Dead Inside this year. It's not in the list and not exactly from Forge, but at least it's indie.

Hey, running Dead Inside is a good show. There's one game that should cater to Finnish tastes of modern horror.

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Can I take the easy way out and mention the games and your stand on certain mailing lists where some of the local theory folks subscribe?  To really pimp the games, I'd have to read them, which I can only do after Ropecon, when I've bought them.

Sure, I'm intending to inform people about the opportunity to buy rare indie games in Ropecon myself when we get the show rolling (read: when we know what we're selling). The SHPR news group and a couple of local roleplaying clubs have to be notified, at least.

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One good way to gain recognition would be to present a lecture (or panel discussion) about the indie game design, theory or the games themselves. It's also lot easier to describe the games to auditorium full of people than to talk each one of them individually.

I've been thinking the same, actually; if there's still room for a lecture, I'm going to keep one. That's one of the more efficient ways of introducing games to people in Ropecon, IMO. That, a good looking booth and a moderate amount of demonstration games are in the cards.

Hey Eero, couple of more points.

1) I know that Universalis and Burning Wheel are both available through Key 20 Direct at //www.key20direct.com.  Key 20 deals with Ulises Spiele and I believe Esvedium also.  Something to keep in mind if you run into any retailers at RopeCon.  Both of those games are, in fact, now available through usual distribution channels.

2) Both Uni and BW also have some sell sheets available in pdf format which you might find useful as fliers.  They're in English, of course, but then so are the games, but I'd be happy to provide it to you in an editable format if you think adding some Finnish text to them would be helpful.  Not sure what might be available for Sorcerer or Multiverser in that regard.

Quote from: Eero TuovinenHey, running Dead Inside is a good show. There's one game that should cater to Finnish tastes of modern horror.

There's also a game which requires certain kind of players - the ones who usually sit and listen the lectures through the whole convention. A problem you're bound to run into if you plan to run demo games.

QuoteSure, I'm intending to inform people about the opportunity to buy rare indie games in Ropecon myself when we get the show rolling (read: when we know what we're selling). The SHPR news group and a couple of local roleplaying clubs have to be notified, at least.

Aye. Also, the convention programme is a place where you can get lot's of exposure for moderate price.

QuoteI've been thinking the same, actually; if there's still room for a lecture, I'm going to keep one. That's one of the more efficient ways of introducing games to people in Ropecon, IMO. That, a good looking booth and a moderate amount of demonstration games are in the cards.

There most probably is; I don't think the lecture program is even halfway done yet (it usually gets into shape few weeks before the convention, with the people responsible for the lectures begging for more of them). Reserving your place well before that gives a good change of getting a good program slot (afternoons, I think).

Buying beer to the male member of the program group also helps, but don't quote me on that one.

Quote from: Valamir
1) I know that Universalis and Burning Wheel are both available through Key 20 Direct at //www.key20direct.com.  Key 20 deals with Ulises Spiele and I believe Esvedium also.  Something to keep in mind if you run into any retailers at RopeCon.  Both of those games are, in fact, now available through usual distribution channels.

Hey, that's actually something I'm meaning to investigate about all of these games. After the 'con I'll try my luck with selling the rest of the books to Fantasiapelit, the premiere Finnish retailer. I'll have to take this kind of information with me when going to introduce games.

Apart from Fantasiapelit there's almost no rpg retailers at all in Finland. However, if any show interest in the games, I will do my best to represent you in that regard.

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2) Both Uni and BW also have some sell sheets available in pdf format which you might find useful as fliers.  They're in English, of course, but then so are the games, but I'd be happy to provide it to you in an editable format if you think adding some Finnish text to them would be helpful.  Not sure what might be available for Sorcerer or Multiverser in that regard.

I'll be definitely wanting any and all marketing materials for the games in question, preferably in editable form. It's faster and easier to translate already thought-out material, and if there is any pictorial material as well, that's something I wouldn't be doing myself at all. I'll be contacting each of you personally to get any marketing material (words and graphics) you like to give for adapting for Ropecon.

Another thing is that if you happen to have any readymade demonstration scenarios and other such game material, that is welcome as well; I'll try to arrange at least one demonstration of each game in the 'con, and it'll take much of the work away from me if you happen to have already thought out how your game is best demoed. If such scenarios will be prepared for Gencon, I'm volunteering to test them beforehand in authentic convention circumstances ;)