[Sorcerer] Humanity gain quickie question

[Doyce]

Okay, quick and easy:

The humanity gain check for a successful Banish against a demon whose Power is higher than your Humanity is: Humanity vs. Power

The Sorcerer has to win for there to be a gain, right?  I know this is a silly question and it's so obviously Humanity that has to win, but I just want to make sure: it certainly makes the chances for Humanity gain from Banishments (as compared to Humanity gains from non-sorcerous 'good' actions) much more of an iffy situation.

The only reason I ask is because it came up last night and I found myself thinking "Man, they have make a tough roll for the banish and, to get a Humanity gain, also make a tough roll for the gain... that sucks for them."

Which is probably true and 'the way it is', I just wanted to make sure.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Doyce,

Your interpretation is right on the money.

Best,
Ron

[Solomon]

I hadn't thought about this before, but it seems counter-intuitive.  As a simplistic example, if I banish the devil himself, surely my humanity would increase (although there may be some other price to pay -- the devil won't go away easily).  I guess I'm asking for the narrative logic behind this.

[Doyce]

You've perfectly illustrated why I doubted the right answer.

For that matter, I could even see a setting-side customization (in some instances) that awarded Humanity Gain for a successful qualifying Banish automatically (since, technically, you already rolled your Humanity > Power during the banish).

[Henri]

Ron might disagree with this, but it seems to me that making humanity gain from banishing difficult is a good thing for game balance.  If it were easy, it would be possible for a "demon hunter" type character to be an inhuman jackass, and still have a high humanity because he banishes so many demons.  It seems to me that this would constitute "breaking" the system, since by an intuitive measure of humanity, this character should be rather low.  The rules as it stand don't allow for this to happen, since the person would probably be making more checks for humanity loss than gain.

Just to be clear, what this "inhuman demon hunter" looks like would depend on your definition of humanity, but I'm thinking someone who thinks nothing of putting "civilians" at risk and otherwise using them to get at his demon target.  For example, you're hunting a demon who likes to eat virgins, so you go out and kidnap a virgin and tie her up and wait for the demon to come, and then spring a trap on him.  In Sorcerer, the means don't justify the ends.  If they did, a lot of the thematic conflict would evaporate.  One could even say that "the road to 0 Humanity is paved with good intentions."

[Doyce]

Good thoughts.  Thanks!

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

That's certainly a related issue, Henri, and it's notable that such a character was an NPC in an early Sorcerer game, as well as being mentioned in Chapter 4.

But the more general answer to this question requires understanding the rules just a wee bit more completely, so let's run all the stuff about Banishing and Humanity loss into one spot. (All this is by memory, so correct me if necessary.)

1. Banishing requires the sorcerer to beat the demon in a contest of sorcerer's [Will + Humanity] against the demon's [Will + Power]. Note that the sorcerer end of this equation is quite flexible, both across sorcerers and within a single sorcerer's career. Whereas the demon may be considered permanently maxed out on its end, as Will and Power are (a) its highest scores and (b) often the same. The demon's total value is usually only reduced by damage penalties and by Punish.

2. The Humanity gain roll is permitted to a sorcerer who ...

a) successfully Banishes a demon which ...

b) has a Power higher than one of the sorcerer's scores (can't remember which one; it's specific though) and ...

c) was not Summoned by that sorcerer.

Now let's take a look at Solomon's quick & dirty example:

if I banish the devil himself, surely my humanity would increase (although there may be some other price to pay -- the devil won't go away easily).

Step #1. Let's say that (a) and (b) are satisfied, presuming that the devil himself has a big ol' Power. And if (c) is satisfied, then rock on, you do get a Humanity gain roll. So I guess I don't see how this example represents a challenge to the logic of the rules.

Step #2. Let's say that (c) is not satisfied after all, that your character Summoned the devil himself and then turned 'round and Banished him. Humanity gain roll? No way. The thematic/narrative logic goes, "You were moron enough to Summon him, so Banishing him ain't any kind of gain situation; it's an equalizer at best and probably not even that considering what he probably accomplished to his own purposes."

Step #3. I'm squinting very suspiciously at the word "surely" in your text, Solomon. It violates the essence (and I do mean the essence) of the Humanity rules in Sorcerer: that they rely on rolls, not on a table of Do-this-get-Humanity, do-that-lose-Humanity. The morality of the game is not accessible to human judgment except over a number of instances, never for an isolated action.

Anyway, to sum up, with all these rules in front of us, this is the thematic point to recognize:

Banishing is not an ethical "wipe the slate" correcting action for Summoning. "I lost a Humanity for Summoning? Fine, I'll Banish the fucker when I'm done and get it back." That approach is not available in this game.

The Humanity gain for Banishing doesn't apply to easy conflicts. Think of it as a matter of putting yourself at risk for the integrity of the universe. "Risk" is only risk, from the universe's point of view, if the demon who will be pissed off if you fail is bigger than you. Banishing littler demons doesn't "impress" the universe.

Best,
Ron

[Doyce]

The Humanity gain for Banishing doesn't apply to easy conflicts. Think of it as a matter of putting yourself at risk for the integrity of the universe. "Risk" is only risk, from the universe's point of view, if the demon who will be pissed off if you fail is bigger than you. Banishing littler demons doesn't "impress" the universe.

That's a great quote, btw: if nothing else comes of this conversation, at least I've got that quote :)

It does raise an interesting question, though, and I want to play around with it a bit.

Let's say that Vinny the Sorcerer is trying to banish a big ol' demon that someone else summoned (meeting all requirements above).

In this horribly lopsided situation, Vinny (who's been fighting the good fight for awhile) has Will and Humanity both at 6 -- he's rolling 12 dice (barring RP and tactical bonus dice).  The demon in question is a real horrorshow: Power and Will of 12 each -- it's normally rolling 24 dice to resist Banishment.

This is a big demon -- a demon that the universe will notice.

Now, lets say that Vinnie has a plan to give himself an edge in this fight: when it's all said an done, some explosives have gone off, a building's been dropped on the Big Bad... it's been bloody.  At the moment of the Banish, the demon's got 7 points of penalty against it (a combination of lasting and temporary penalties... whatever), in combination, these penalties drop its 24 dice to 10 (-7 to both Power and Will I believe... or is that double-dipping the damage penalty... should -7 only apply once to the total dice roll? -- I need to go look at that.)

Anyway, the point is, the effective Power of the Demon at the moment of the Banish is lower than the Sorcerer's Humanity, because of the Penalty.

Vinny succeeds with the Banish.  Does he get a Humanity Check?
 a) No. The criteria from the rules have not been met.  In essense, Vinny looses the Humanity gain opportunity, but gets the benefit of an easier Banish by pummeling the demon first.
 b) Yes.  The universe knows that while the demon was momentarily weakened during the Banish, it's still a Big Bad Thing, and it notices.  Vinny gets a Humanity Gain check, but still has to beat the Demon's "real" Power score with his Humanity roll.

At first blush, I prefer the idea of (b), if only because (a) feels a bit like I'm penalizing Vinny for good tactics... though it could be argued that in return Vinny gets an easier Banish, so it's hardly Lose-Lose.

Thoughts?

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Doyce,

Let's say that Vinny the Sorcerer is trying to banish a big ol' demon that someone else summoned (meeting all requirements above).

In this horribly lopsided situation, Vinny (who's been fighting the good fight for awhile) has Will and Humanity both at 6 -- he's rolling 12 dice (barring RP and tactical bonus dice). The demon in question is a real horrorshow: Power and Will of 12 each -- it's normally rolling 24 dice to resist Banishment.

This is a big demon -- a demon that the universe will notice.

Whoa. Quick clarifier. It only notices if the demon is bigger than Vinnie. In this case, it is, but I wanted to make that point clear. The universe, for this issue, is a relativist.

But that's all good, so let's carry on ...

... Vinnie has a plan to give himself an edge in this fight: ... At the moment of the Banish, the demon's got 7 points of penalty against it (a combination of lasting and temporary penalties... whatever), in combination, these penalties drop its 24 dice to 10 (-7 to both Power and Will I believe... or is that double-dipping the damage penalty... should -7 only apply once to the total dice roll? -- I need to go look at that.)

Anyway, the point is, the effective Power of the Demon at the moment of the Banish is lower than the Sorcerer's Humanity, because of the Penalty.

'K, got it. All set.

Vinny succeeds with the Banish. Does he get a Humanity Check?

a) No. The criteria from the rules have not been met. In essense, Vinny looses the Humanity gain opportunity, but gets the benefit of an easier Banish by pummeling the demon first.

b) Yes. The universe knows that while the demon was momentarily weakened during the Banish, it's still a Big Bad Thing, and it notices. Vinny gets a Humanity Gain check, but still has to beat the Demon's "real" Power score with his Humanity roll.

It's (a). The universe is a relativist and follows the criteria from the rules. Vinny gets no Humanity gain roll, but enjoys an easier Banish. Bear in mind that this point does apply to damage/Punish/rollover penalties, but does not apply to bonus dice in chapter 1 terms. That's important.

At first blush, I prefer the idea of (b), if only because (a) feels a bit like I'm penalizing Vinny for good tactics... though it could be argued that in return Vinny gets an easier Banish, so it's hardly Lose-Lose.

You are not penalizing Vinny for good tactics; those tactics made the demon easier to Banish, hence he was rewarded in those terms.

By contrast, the Sorcerer Humanity system cares very little about tactics, except for a bonus die or two (which do not count in the universe's estimation, as mentioned above). It cares about ethics and risk.

In other words, keep the Gamism out of the primary (Humanity) reward system. Sorcerer welcomes tactical thinking, but only in terms of getting in-game tasks done - not in terms of thematic judgment, which is what Humanity is all about.

Best,
Ron

[Doyce]

Quick clarifier. It only notices if the demon is bigger than Vinnie.

Right. Sloppy statement on my part.

It's (a). The universe is a relativist and follows the criteria from the rules. Vinny gets no Humanity gain roll, but enjoys an easier Banish. Bear in mind that this point does apply to damage/Punish/rollover penalties, but does not apply to bonus dice in chapter 1 terms. That's important.

Which is good, cuz that's exactly how I've been doing it -- just testing my understanding.

You are not penalizing Vinny for good tactics; those tactics made the demon easier to Banish, hence he was rewarded in those terms.  [...] In other words, keep the Gamism out of the primary (Humanity) reward system. Sorcerer welcomes tactical thinking, but only in terms of getting in-game tasks done - not in terms of thematic judgment, which is what Humanity is all about.

Which is an excellent statement to keep in mind during any number of conflicts that crop up in Sorcerer.  Thanks!

[sirogit]

Huh.... it seemed to me that the main topic of this question wasn't addressed. Excuse me if I'm just being dense.

There's three Demons, Larry, Curly, and Moe.

Larry has a power of 3.

Curly has a power of 6

And Moe has a power of 12.

Now, A sorcerer with a Humanity of 5 banishes all of the demons in succession.

When he banishes Larry, He gets no Humanity check. Getting rid of little demons is just par for the course.

When he banishes Curly, he gets a Humanity check because Curly is considerably risk to take on. His Humanity at 5 versus Curly's power of 6. He has a aslightly less than 50/50 chance of making it, but it's a decent effort.

When he banishes Moe, he gets a Humanity check because Moe is a freakin' terror. But his Humanity is 5 verus Moe's power of 12, so he has a much smaller chance of making it with no immediate justification why.

Now, I think that the answer has something to do with having a high Humanity is always -good-, espciailly for Humanity Gain checks, but the small picture looks a little distorted.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

First, a terminology correction.

Humanity gain roll = roll Humanity against itself or against the demon's Power. Success = increase Humanity by 1; failure = no change.

Humanity check = roll Humanity against itself or against the demon's Power. Success = no change; failure = decrease Humanity by 1.

In another recent thread, talk of "Humanity gain checks" was making my teeth hurt, and here, I'm seeing "check" used for both. So! Quit it, everyone; use the above, which are from the rules.

Now for the response. Sirogit, that was not the original question, it's your new question. But here goes ...

When he banishes Curly, he gets a Humanity check because Curly is considerably risk to take on. His Humanity at 5 versus Curly's power of 6. He has a aslightly less than 50/50 chance of making it, but it's a decent effort.

When he banishes Moe, he gets a Humanity check because Moe is a freakin' terror. But his Humanity is 5 verus Moe's power of 12, so he has a much smaller chance of making it with no immediate justification why.

"With no immediate justification why" ...? I smell a need for in-game explanations.

Perhaps all that talk of the universe watching, which was only a didactic device for Doyce (which worked), is causing trouble. Forget the universe watching and judging. Think thematically.

Dealing with big demons = more risk to Humanity, period. That risk is expressed by their Power; that's what Power is.* The higher its Power relative to the sorcerer's, whatever the sorcerer is doing with or to it, the less chance Humanity has to thrive.

Best,
Ron

* Which, I hope, suddenly makes clear what an outstandingly important ritual Punish is. It permits tweaking the moral currency of the game. That's really why demons hate it.

[djarb]

There's three Demons, Larry, Curly, and Moe.

Larry has a power of 3.

Curly has a power of 6

And Moe has a power of 12.

Now, A sorcerer with a Humanity of 5 banishes all of the demons in succession.

<snip>

When he banishes Moe, he gets a Humanity check because Moe is a freakin' terror. But his Humanity is 5 verus Moe's power of 12, so he has a much smaller chance of making it with no immediate justification why.

The fact that it's hard is what makes it worthy of a Humanity roll. The character is risking life, limb, sanity or whatever to banish this crime against Humanity from the world.

Maybe there were smarter ways to do it, but Humanity is not about your brain, it's about your soul, and being willing to take that risk in the name of Humanity is what gets the reward.

[Valamir]

For me the Humanity Gain roll for banishing demons makes more sense if you concieve of it as an automatic +1 Humanity followed by a Humanity Loss Check.

You Gain a point of humanity for banishing a demon of suitable power, period.  Demon Banished, humanity gained.  Then you immediately check to see if you lose that point.

That's why the higher power demons are harder to gain humanity with than the just barely higher demons.  With the just barely higher demons you can banish them without much threat to your own humanity in the process.  Therefor you gain the Humanity and have a good chance of keeping it.  

The superpowerful demons, yeah you gained a humanity point for it...but you were dealing directly with things man was not meant to know and its likely that the experience will have left you scarred (losing the point).

[sirogit]

Ron:

Sorry about the terminology man. I struggle alot with terminoligies.

But I really -was- wondering about it from a thematic point of view, and both yours and Valamir's responses summed it up nicely. Thanks.