What does DTRPG Mean for the indies?

[Adam]

pace DRM, there's not just the price, but file size, and the fact that, AFAICS, you don't know whether you're getting a scan or digital source for your money. If it's the former, that could account for the huge file sizes of some products

The individual page for each product indicates whether the product is built from the layout files or from a scan.

Best,
Adam

[Peter Hollinghurst]

Overall I suspect that it can only benefit rpgnow and similar ventures that do not use DRM. Raising the profile of pdfs as a format is good-there are still a lot of gamers ignorant of it as a possibility, or who generally do not use pdfs if they are aware of them (I recently observed a fascinating discussion on the white wolf forums for exalted over the way the free pdf was sooo cool because it could 'talk to you' and read back the book-I guess they just are not aware its a built in feature of acrobat 6.0).
The DRM thing is a huge mistake on their part though, and if rpgnow can raise its profile, along with smaller distributors of their own pdfs without DRM i suspect they will gain a massive advantage. Anything that creates hesitation or uncertainty in a buying process will lessen sales at some point. It makes it several steps harder to get your first crucial pdf, raises questions about how DRM works and what it is that people have to check out and so on. People dont like to touch things they are unsure of. The big joke is that DRM is only very limited protection, since freely available software exists that completely circumvents it, allowing copies to be made without DRM.

[Peter Hollinghurst]

Oh-another thought-having read some of the discussion on rpgnets forum I suspect that the issue of trust and DRM is rather crucial to many peoples objections. This is a question that is important for indie publishers as well as higher profile companies where pdfs are concerned of course. One suggestion I have not seen (though perhaps it has already been made here-I really must get better at searching out old threads) is that rather than DRM (which doesnt stop pirates and is a pain, limiting user options over cut and past, resaving, platform used etc) why not accept some people will share it and put a link in the pdf to a webpage where you can pay if you like and use the book? Even if they get a copy through less honest means, the honest person can then easily still pay for it...

[Clinton R. Nixon]

If we're going to continue to discuss this, let's discuss something that hasn't already been run to death. (For those not aware, search for DTRPG on RPG.net or elsewhere to get a firehose in the face.)

This thread is not closed, but make sure this doesn't become a long re-hash.

[Rich Stokes]

Being careful not to re-hash anything here, I don't think I've see this discussed in any depth anywhere, but y'know...

What about the concept of "main rules as loss leader?" and how PDFery is going to affect that?
For some time it's been the case that some larger companies put out large (300+) core rulebooks for big gamelines as *relatively* low prices, and then much smaller (128 page) sourcebooks at only slightly lower prices around the 10 GBP mark.

In this new world can we expect, say, White Wolf to make it's core rulebooks available as PDFs at really much lower prices than the hardcopy, and the supplements at a higher percentage of dead tree edition costs?  Do we think that the decision to give away the Exalted PDF without charging will increase uptake on the game line?

What percentage of folks who download the PDF from DTRPG without paying anything would have bought the hardcopy, (or paid for the PDF) but now won't?

What percentage of folks who downloaded it previously had no interest in the game, but might now buy one or more products in the game line?

Is this the big fish learning from the indy "If you love your game, set it free" philosophy (without realising)?

BTW, Vault Collection 2 is also down to $5

[Peter Hollinghurst]

Some stats on that would be interesting I agree. There is always a trade off between people who would have purchased a product but decided they hate it afterwards, and those who who would not and discover they love it. I suspect the second category is ultimately going to generate more sales.

Having waded through all 80 or so pages of the rpgnet thread (it was a horrible, but instructive, process) I did notice several things that struck me as relevent here.
First off JG Browning and Philip J Reed both demonstrated the strength of their approach to the market-they made concise reasoned arguements and made sales through the dispute by demonstrating a greater respect for their potential customers than some of the other publishers did and by demonstrating the superiority of their marketing model (sans DRM). The other publishers, in general, seemed incapable of responding to this in any meaningful way whatsoever.
I watched sale after made by the rpgnow model on the forum while I saw sale after sale lost by the drivethru model.
Ultimately I dont think it was the DRM issue itself that drove this dynamic-it looked very much to me like it was the attitudes being expressed. I would go so far as to suggest that the choice to use DRM on drivethru (along with the near print pricing) is a reflection of this attitude difference. Publishers using rpgnow (and for that matter the forge bookshelf or publishing through their own sites) seemed in general to have a healthy concept that while this is a business, it is also a hobby, and only a small sector of the publishing industry as a whole. They treated potential customers seriously, demonstrated an understanding of their needs issues and complaints and said 'we are gamers just like you are'. They identified with the customer.
Ultimately I suspect this is the greatest strength of Indie publishing, and over time I hope that it continues to grow. In a hobby enviroment identifying with the other hobbyists is essential-alienating them is counterproductive. That is not to say that companies cannot survive (or even thrive) once they have caused alienation amongst their own customer base. Thinking back I can readily recall the days when white dwarf magazine here in the UK was very much a fan-led rpg magazine, before it became the 'voice of warhammer'. I was among many people who never purchased another games workshop product when they switched over to warhammer. Considering my excessive rpg product buying in those days my act to boycot them probably cost them several thousand pounds-but they are still there.
What I can see though is a situation where Indie publishers can exploit the legitimate frustrations with drivethru and similar methods to increase their own market share.

Go for it!

[Rich Stokes]

Some stats on that would be interesting I agree. There is always a trade off between people who would have purchased a product but decided they hate it afterwards, and those who who would not and discover they love it. I suspect the second category is ultimately going to generate more sales.

Theres's a third option: some people might have been "Umming and arring" about whether to buy the book, but now they no longer feel that they need a hardcopy.  Its not that they don't like the game, in fact, from a sales point of view it doesn't matter what they think of it.  But they now won't buy a hardcopy of that book.

I would imagine that the development costs of the core book in a gameline like that is the one that takes the most time and money to put together, yet it's often the cheapest for consumers in terms of "pence per page".  A bit like Sony selling PS2s at a loss so that they can stripe you for games.

But now things are moving away from that requirement for a physical object for this kind of business model.  Compare the price of Sony getting a PS2 to the retailer vs the cost of Apple getting Itunes onto your hard-drive.

Obviously, the cost of distributing the PDF of Exalted is going to be very much lower than the cost of distributing the hardcopy.

I dunno, do we think this can work far big publishers?  Does anyone think that publishers are going to be commonly putting out a FOC PDF with the basics of what a player needs for a game (along the lines of TRoS's quickstart or Gurps Lite on steroids)?

[Moah]

One of the issues of the DRM debate on a bigger scale than the RPG publishing community is just what is going to happen to the indies. One of the goal of the publishing majors is to have some chip that will prevent your computer from executing software, or experience data if it is not authorized.

The authorization would be put out of reach of individuals (cause otherwise, ya know, pirates could authorize their pirated data), thus preventing indies from publishing their own work, and forcing them to deal with Majors.

We're not quite there yet. But the entertainment industry is trying again and again to get us there. Even if some of the people at rpg.net are only annoyed by the convenience issue, some others see a bigger issue that affects not just customers...

[Peter Hollinghurst]

I hope they never will.

There are two dynamics that make it seem unlikely yet-one is that if indies offer good, competitively priced products there will always be a market, and the second is that if there is a market then someone always tends to find a way to sell to it. If control of much of the technology passed out of indie hands I suspect new methods to create and distribute files would spring up. It would be a setback, forcing new methods onto indies, but it would probably not be terminal.
At the current state of play, if rpgnow had been bought out by drivethru (which apparently they tried) and then use of it by vendors was restricted (probably one of the more disastrous moves for indies at the moment), how long would it take before a new service akin to rpgnow was created?
The biggest difficulty is that of course any period of forced innactivity in sales could be serious for some indie game makers.

I think your comment about the future of the industry and restrictions on access to DRM style tech for indies, along with the possibility that some publishers might try and squeeze out indies, raises some important issues. Indie designers sjould certainly keep a forward looking perspective on the opportunities currently afforded us, because change does happen, and often rather fast in the computer market, and pdfs will tend to get caught up with this.

I have seen some indications that several of the publishers involved in drivethru are having second thoughts btw (I emailed several stating I would love to buy their pdfs, but not with the drivethru DRM model and some replies, along with a few posted comments on forums certainly give an impression that a few may be having cold feet). Those of us who oppose DRM should keep up the pressure.

[urbwar]

Even though I have no problem with DriveThru myself, I think it's existence could prove to be a good thing for indie rpgs.

The people who plan on boycotting the companies involved with DTRPG will eventually look elsewhere for product, and hopefully they will look at indie rpg's as alternatives. I know I posted many links to games in that alternatives thread, hoping people would just check out some good games that are out there, trying to turn some of the negative into a positive.

I'm hoping some of the games see increased sales, and that their authors will then try and release more material for those games. I know a few games I have had supplements planned, and I sure would like to see some of them see the light of day.