Karbon, a 24hr RPG

[b_bankhead]

This is why /exactly/ why I don't like this place and don't come here anymore--snap judgements with little substance, and erroneous assumptions from brief read throughs. Some people seem to be reading it which is a good thing--and for those of you that have I applaud you for bothering.

Why not suggest ways to /add/ to the design? Why not give a reason why and how he can improve asking the questions?

Well thanks for the applause since I am one of the few who bothered.

Here is a list of over 500 free rpgs available online.
http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/freerpgs/

Mind you this is not exhaustive.

Now how many do you think I'll ever even have a chance to give a playtest to?  How many of these rpgs do you think I'm ever going to get a chance to even give a brief read through to?  ?

The answer is practically none.  Frankly most of them almost certainly aren't worth the trouble.  Most of them are just rehashes of the same ideas and mechanics that have been tried in hundreds of other games.

I have been reading rpg rules since 1977, and I have a pretty good nose for when a game is actually doing something really different.  And I think I can spot that on a brief read through ( and I gave Karbon more than just a brief read through).  Unless a game has something that jumps out at me as different about it, It's lucky to get more than a brief glance,much less a read through.

There are recent Forge games that jump out at me.  Scarlet Wake is one. Capes is another, as is Doomchaser. Even Have-a-Go Heroes makes my eyes open a little wider...

But it doesn't really matter to me how much fun isolated individuals can have with the game, unless it has something that makes it stand out, frankly,its a waste of time.   I'm just not going to raise a rousing cheer over yet another variation on the, combat system+reward system+resource management of mostly combat modifiers rpg. And you know what? Neither will practically all of the greater rpg world.  Look at how many of those 500+ rpgs are comepletely ignored.

Again I reiterate, the problem with Karbon isn't that it's a 24 hour game.  Have-a-Go-Heroes was a 24 hours game that I wouldn't dream of calling a Champions heartbreaker because it's whole approach makes it different enought to make it stand out from almost any other superhero game I've seen.

Karbon has potential, but that potential is mostly a basic idea.  To realise that potential Karbon needs a complete rethink of how it's doing what it wants to do.   Make Karbon something that jumps out at me.

[Jason Petrasko]

1.The problem with Karbon is that all it tells you how to do is shoot the android. ... How DO they hunt down Karbons?

Too much is implied in the short version. Let me point out 2 sections:

Karbon: Any replicated being, produced such as to be a carbon copy.
May additionally be enhanced with lace. (Note: Karbons are cabon copies)

In this land the Hunter is the elite. They are the law. There are no judges, no juries, and no fear or prosecution. Only fines for dismissing humans by mistake (5,000 each). Even the police bow to the Hunters once they are recognized as such, and many police officers hope to become one some day. (Note: lack of rules)

Ok, given those 2 concepts, it seems clear to me how hunters hunt Karbons. However the hell they want. The hunters are a society unto themselves on a dying earth full of degenerates that can't make it into space. I did not define how a Karbon is hunted, because each hunter does the job differently.

2. If you really want to be a Karbon then why don't you just declare yourself one? It might be fun to have your fellow players hunt you down, but where do Karbons go to hide?

I think half the fun is the getting there. I mean if your goal is to be a karbon you can press your rolls (for instant bonuses) over and over without worry. This makes for a very able character.

... Since the modifiers for the 'Karbon saving roll' are cumulative eventually everybody is going to be a Karbon if they play long enough,so there is no real mystery to the question of 'am I a Karbon?". ...

Ok, you must not have read it very well.  On page 18 under 'Hunt' it tells of an Omni roll given to each character at the end of session to remove Karbon Points. In this way you can pick up only a few KP per session and then lose them at the end. Your statement lacks any clear fact.

Your taking the game much more literally than I intended. The real issues are such like: 'What is a Karbon?' Is it just a label slapped on someone that the program wants removed? Are they what the program says? etc.

Well, I respect your opinion. I however can not grasp how you came to certain conclusions.

Jason

[Sydney Freedberg]

This game does seem to be headed for a whole "Blade Runner meets Judge Dread in Escape from New York" kinda feel. But the key thing -- the really neat thing -- is the "am I a Karbon?" I think that's the mechanic to work on. Let angsty self-doubting goodness pervade the whole game.

[Jason Petrasko]

Sydney,

That is exactly where I want to go. The expanded version of the game is now featuring more doubt issues, and even as far as a character succumbing to the belief that they are a karbon.

As far as feel is concerned, I'm moving more towards a Ghost in the Shell feel now. The program is distinctly japanese-american in nature, and the specialty tech. is really far out. I want a universe that just seems impossible to grasp, one that is out of control.

Yes, the "am I a Karbon?" issue will always dominate the game though. I'm open to suggestions on how to accomplish this better without having to tear down the feel I'm building though.

[Sydney Freedberg]

The expanded version of the game.....

Do you have this posted anywhere? Be curious to see it. Thanks.

[Jason Petrasko]

Sydney,

The game is in a state of constant evolution, and I've decided to mark of major changes with the .X naming system. The version is now 1.2, which I'm testing with my group. The 1.3 version will introduce a stat for 'doubt', and this might be the final change I need to make (I hope). This stat will make up for the fact that as the game moves away from a one-shot style, players are less likely to want their hunters to become karbons. Instead doubt offers mental slips, and possibly the conclusion that one is a Karbon even if they are not.

Here is a link to a page where you can get access to the ever updating .pdf:

http://karbon.greyearth.com/down.html">http://karbon.greyearth.com/down.html

[Sydney Freedberg]

Wicked cool layout. I am impressed.

The actual text probably needs another edit, as I found some of it confusing (and, less important) there are minor mistakes of grammar & spelling. (Suggestion: Find a friend whose writing skills you respect and ask them to read through; it's impossible to edit your own stuff really well).

As for the system itself, it's way more layered than is my taste, but it looks like you're trying to build a crunchy, combat-oriented Gamist game, and for such games lots of moving parts to manipulate is probably a positive thing for players.

Finally, I'd still like to see more emphasis on the identity/becoming-a-Karbon aspect of the game. Currently there are bits scattered throughout the rules about accumulating Karbon Points and such, but I think it deserves a strong central focus.

[Jason Petrasko]

Sydney,

Thanks! I like the layout too, but it may be too cluttered at some points.
Yes indeed, I need more editing :)

I'm confused by your use of 'layered'. Do you mean stacking traits/history/lace? If so I didn't think the system was too layered really, I mean three types of score for characters. I just wanted some way to let  character individuality come out.

In the new (yet unreleased since its untested) 1.3 version there is an entire section that deals with Doubt, Karbon Points, and Identity issues.

Thanks!,
Jason

[Sydney Freedberg]

I'm confused by your use of 'layered'. Do you mean stacking traits/history/lace?

Pretty much; I'm a big fan of using a single Grand Unified Mechanic for everything, rather than have characters have multiple different kinds of stats that work by slightly different mechanics. That said, it's a hard ideal to implement in practice...