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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 64 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: Missile pool refreshing speed  (Read 10812 times)
Turin
Member

Posts: 105


« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2004, 08:17:10 PM »

A think of wit and a refreshing MP is something similar to the veteran soldier who is cool under pressure and can get off a few shots while the rookie may even forget to take the safety off or something similar.

I would think your MP should refresh at (skill+wit+wit)/3.  Nemo them refreshes at 10 (a bit to high but certainly an unusual case).  But your newbie even though talented is a 6.  Makes sense to me.

Maybe Wit for missile fire should be calculated this way as opposed to making a seperate "refresh" stat.
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Claymore
Member

Posts: 128


WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2004, 09:51:43 PM »

I think the refresh rate could go up a bit, I mentioned this to Brian with some suggestions, and I know he had already been looking at this as well. Keep the comments coming!
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jone
Member

Posts: 21


« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2004, 02:21:32 AM »

Ok this is my opinion.

In the riddle of steel:

- You have to aim at least one turn (1-2s) (even though the "arrow is knocked" and ready)
- good shooters can be just as bad in quick fight than poor shooters (who just happens to have a high WIT score..Wit is often high because it's needed in melee fight too)


IMO it should be more like:

- You can shoot immediately as the the arrow is ready to go and dont need to spend any time in aiming. Of course, sucks a lot at longer distances but could be enough to hit a target in 1-20 meters.

- The first (and maybe second) round of aiming is the most important. At least with firearms, I can shoot very accurately after just a couple of seconds of aiming...


I just don't know how to put this in rules...

Any archers here? Knife throwers? Any opinions? Ideas?
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jone
Member

Posts: 21


« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2004, 04:53:43 AM »

Hmm.

Should the refresh time depend also on the weapon being used? I mean, you really do not use much time when aiming with a throwing knife or throwing spear (or in fact throwing anything)... but with a bow you certainly do. Are crossbows maybe quicker than bows (when talking about the actual aiming)?

Or, could a good shooter/thrower maybe pay some activation costs for faster aiming?
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Deliverator
Member

Posts: 19


« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2004, 08:00:26 AM »

Hi.  I have been talking with a friend who is an expert archer, a roleplayer, and in fact a mathematician and computer scientist (so he understands dice mechanics pretty well!).  We had a reasonably lengthy conversation, but the gist of it is, his opinion is that refresh rate should go up for a better archer.

As for other weapons, I'm not sure.  I do feel that for ease of play it's probably best to stick with one mechanic.

Matt
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-Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash
Turin
Member

Posts: 105


« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2004, 08:38:27 AM »

Jone wrote:

Quote
- good shooters can be just as bad in quick fight than poor shooters (who just happens to have a high WIT score..Wit is often high because it's needed in melee fight too)


I think the question is one, what is wit and skill level trying to define, game stats to real world?

Is wit someones "quick thinking ability"? If so, I think this is not a set stat, but definitely improvable, and I think your stat for "wit" would improve for s specific skill as you skill improved.

I have shot an M16, and practiced archery.  Tried skeet shooting with a shotgun a few years ago, and I was having a problem targeting the bird quick enough, before it flew into less effective range.  After a few more "shoots", I target it much quicker.  The people I was shooting with were able to target it much quicker than I, having practiced, though their "wit" score was not higher than mine IMO, as I could kill them in raquetball or other similar things, though not shooting a shotgun.

A high skill level would also indicate an ability to target quicker IMO.  On the other hand, TROS (or any system I am aware of) does not differentiate between the competition shooting type skill, and a accurate shooting quick thinking combat veteran.  Both are represented in the same way, so you have to work with this abstraction when determining what high "wit" and skill mean.
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Poleaxe
Member

Posts: 37


« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2004, 09:14:29 AM »

as far as what wit really "is" (depends on the definition of "is" heh heh)

Quote

The people I was shooting with were able to target it much quicker than I, having practiced, though their "wit" score was not higher than mine IMO, as I could kill them in raquetball or other similar things, though not shooting a shotgun.


I think the statement defines what most of us think of as Wit and the general role of attributes.

That being the case, I think that sometimes TROS in certain instances puts too much emphasis on Attributes rather than specific skills.  It all depends on your philosophy about "reality" and the kind of mechanic you want to use in game.

I am a believer in Skill specificity rather than a general attribute to explain how a person can be good and improve at a particular task or many tasks.  That being the case, I prefer system mechanics that favor higher skill rather than jacked up attributes.  To me, it's just more realistic.  There are many super agile, really smart, high wit people etc. people out there.  More so than me.  However, many more agile people than me can't attack or block as many times as I can in a sparring match or fight, many more fit people will tire faster than me in a sparring match or fight because I know how to breathe, many "wittier" people would probably bomb worse than me at improvised comedy onstage, etc.

TROS is mostly fine, but sometimes (like in this case) we (those of us who are with me) need to change the mechanics for certain situations to favor more skilled individuals rather "high attribute" individuals.

Did I make sense?

-Alan
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jone
Member

Posts: 21


« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2004, 12:05:31 PM »

Hmmm about "what is Wit?"

Wit affects many things in tros, both melee and ranged combat and many skill throws. If we say a good archer should have a high Wit, it also means that he is better in many skills and in melee fighting.. and I don't think knowing how to aim really improves your melee fighting skills.

Baaaahh, I just still don't have any nice suggestions "how to change the system" :-)
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Dain
Member

Posts: 125


« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2004, 04:11:51 PM »

Actually what I think they were going for with wit was something halfway between perception and reflex....kindof a "reaction" stat. I think it was intended to reflect "how quickly one gathers one's self and adjusts to a unexpected situation or a rapidly changing situation". The higher your wit the quicker you recover from surprise and the faster you think on your feet...you don't necessarily think smarter...just faster. The guy with the low wit is the one that stands dumbfounded for a second and feels like he's moving in slow motion after that when something big and nasty jumps out of his palace jacuzzi, dripping blood from it's gullet...the guy with the high wit's feet move like road runner's right after it jumps out, does a dive and roll and comes up with whatever makeshift weapon was in reach. Both guys left equal brown stains in their swim trunks...it's just that the second guy didn't get eaten quite as soon as the first guy, and maybe even got in a few licks of his own before having his throat torn out.

That's my (graphic) 2 cents worth on it anyhow...and I could be horribly wrong.
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Brian Leybourne
Member

Posts: 1793


« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2004, 04:42:01 PM »

Uh, you guys do know that you can fire with no aiming time right? (You're all talking like you don't, maybe this needs to be better clarified in TFOB).

Pool refresh happens at the START of each round (note - archery rounds are 1 second, so they're actually exchanges in a melee sense, this will be well described in TFOB, I have already written that part in fact) and not at the end of the round.

So as soon as I have the arrow nocked, the first second I can fire it because I have refreshed my Wit in MP dice for that second. If I don't fire that very first second, I can fire the next second and I by then have wit*2, etc.

And so on. It's not "wait a second then get one refresh, wait another second and get another". It's "the first second I have one refresh, the next second I have another and so on".

A fine but very important point.

Brian.
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Brian Leybourne
bleybourne@gmail.com

RPG Books: Of Beasts and Men, The Flower of Battle, The TROS Companion
Deliverator
Member

Posts: 19


« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2004, 04:42:33 PM »

Quote from: jone
Baaaahh, I just still don't have any nice suggestions "how to change the system" :-)


Well, it certainly seems to me that adding a fraction of your Proficiency to Wit score for the purposes of filling your Missile Pool is a reasonable solution.

I'm thinking 1/4:

4 = beginner, but still able to aim faster than an untrained person
8 = veteran
12 = master
16 = stupendous man!

Matt
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The Deliverator belongs to an elite order, a hallowed subcategory.

-Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash
Dain
Member

Posts: 125


« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2004, 05:18:15 PM »

Hey Brian,

I can't speak for others here, but yes, I for one knew the refresh at start of missile round and that there are two missile rounds per one melee round from you yourself mentioning it in at least one other thread, and maybe more if I recall as there's been a lot of threads on this topic. Even considering that, I think the points being made are pretty much all still valid and aren't diminished at all when you think of missile guy versus missile guy (duel). You only refresh once to his once...not twice...because you're both doing missiles. That leaves all the math and speed due to skill arguments listed here pretty much completely intact, valid, relevant, and mortally important to those involved. My posts here were assuming missile versus missile (up until the what is wit post anyhow). I think that's where people are coming from here anyhow...correct me if I'm wrong.
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jone
Member

Posts: 21


« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2004, 12:22:05 AM »

I still think that either range or the weapon used should affect the aiming time.. If you're throwing a knife/dagger/rock/whatever, you really don't spend much time in aiming (1-2 secs max, imo)... and this is because you throw always at close ranges.
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Darcy Burgess
Member

Posts: 476


« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2004, 06:10:35 AM »

my own .02 --

to keep things simple, just allow a  percentage bonus to refresh on the first round of missile fire -- everyone's a little steadier, as the arrows haven't started flying yet, and everyone knows where their target is.

obviously, your skill is still your cap -- so this will hamper low-skill/high-wit characters.

eg (using 100% bonus for ease of math):
wit 5 skill 6, first round 6 dice.
wit 4 skill 15, first round 8 dice.

personally, I agree with Brian -- you shouldn't call yourself a master archer unless you've got a better-than-ok wit.

otherwise, spend your time on the tournament circuit and stay off the battlefield.
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Black Cadillacs - Your soapbox about War.  Use it.
Vagabond Elf
Member

Posts: 23


« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2004, 11:41:47 AM »

Jone, range comes into it by the fact that you need less dice at short ranges as your TNs are lower.  So one or two seconds of refresh is more than enough.

For a longer ranged shot you want more dice to compensate for the higher TN and so you aim longer.
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