Narrativism

[Gordon C. Landis]

I have a related question here. It seems that you often bring up Premise as though it's a defining aspect of narrative play. Is not Premise applicable to other styles, though?

Not to speak for Ron here, but as I understand it the GNS essay does identify Premise for all styles.  Some are far removed from a Narrativist-style premise ("Let's see how well we do against this killer dungeon!"), but others can be quite close.  E.g.,

[ . . . ] Storyteller is primarily a character simulation system, in spite of a lot of story oriented prose. Isn't it the Premise of the game that keeps people buying it? It seems like the Premise is similar to that of Sorcerer... how far do you go before you lose your humanity.

"How far do you go before you lose your humaity?" can pretty much identically be the Premise for a pure Simulationist exploration of character/setting/whatever where that's the issue, AND the Premise of a Narrativist in-play created story that resolves/illuminates some aspect of the issue.  Hell, you could use it as the foundation of a Gamist, "how far can I push the HumanoMeter?" tactical challenge.

But while something as plain as "what's it like to be a bunny?" could be the Premise of a Simulationist game, it CAN'T be the Premise of a Narrativist one.

So maybe a particular kind of Premise is a defining aspect of Narrative play - but a lot of it is in what you do with the premise.

Gordon

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I'm puzzled, folks. My use of Premise is fully outlined in http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/gns/gns_introduction.html">the grossly large GNS essay.

Perhaps what's confusing people is the term's multiple, subdivided quality.

Initial premise = individual interest in imagining any or all of Character, Setting, Situation, System, or Color

Premise per se = a shared and compatible version of initial premises among a group

Premise in action = application of the "Premise per se" in actual play, which ipso facto involves some version of GNS goals. Hence, three sets of Premise type to discuss at this level, each with several subdivisions.

Much discussion on the Forge concerns the various versions of Narrativist Premises at this level, because that's what a bunch of us like to use in most of our play. That's an artifact of the demographic at the Forge, not an indication that Narrativism has some special claim to the term.

Best,
Ron

[Paganini]

I'm puzzled, folks. My use of Premise is fully outlined in http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/gns/gns_introduction.html">the grossly large GNS essay.

Sorry Ron, I should have been more clear. What I meant was, I understood the definition of premise in your grossly large essay :) to be the attention getting elements in the game. Possibly the core or most important elements that the game is designed around. But on these forums a lot of times it seems as though you're applying Premise as something that is exclusively narrativist. So I was just wanting a bit of clarification. I think Gordon answered my question.

[Ron Edwards]

Paganini,

I'm still puzzled, though. The GNS chapter in the essay is about nothing else besides how Premise must be focused into local forms in order to be functional in play at all. You refer to the definition in the early part of the essay, but seem to have missed the idea that the definition's further specifications or applications are what role-playing is all about.

Nearly any discussion of Premise in an applied way is going to have to be dealing with one of the local forms, rather than the most general version of the term. Thus the various discussions of Narrativist Premises (or any other kind) will not correspond with the general definition alone, but with its application into Narrativist play (or any other kind).

This is not a contradiction between the general and local terms, but a rather elementary outcome of what they are.

Best,
Ron

[Gordon C. Landis]

But on these forums a lot of times it seems as though you're applying Premise as something that is exclusively narrativist.

And then,

This is not a contradiction between the general and local terms, but a rather elementary outcome of what they are.

Seems to me like Paganini was running into a contradiction not in the general and local terms in the essay, but between the essay and demographic effect of Narrativist's on the Forge who talk about the "localization" of Premise in Narrativist terms.

As Ron says, the localization of Premise to any game is a "elementary outcome".  There's just been a lot of talk about how to localize a Premise for Narrativism, and not much about other localizations.

Gordon