Concentrating innate magic (talents)???

[Mike Holmes]

At the risk of following up one post on the heels of the one above it:

Peter has reminded me that he's clarified the subject with his interpretation of the rules, and, indeed he has. But somehow I'm still unsatisfied. It's not that I don't believe Peter, it's that there still seems to be some problem with the rules that the explanation doesn't iron out.

Could you explain to me where my perceptions are incorrect, Peter? More importantly, I'm not so much concerned with the local interpretation for Common Magic, but I'm trying to get at the principle below it. That is, very generally, the rules of HQ are that abilities that start belonging to a keyword begin at the level of the keyword. Those that do not belong to a keyword start at 13. So, given that Common Magic Abilities seem to apply to the Common Magic Keyword, which of the following is the reason why the ones beyond the first 5 start at 13 instead of 17.

[list=1][*]Magic abilities do not belong to their respective keywords, proper. That is, the abilities that start at 17 are actually bumped up to represent experience in the field, but all magic (or at the very least common magic) should be considered to be outside the keyword to which it would otherwise seem to belong.
[*]Only the five abilities chosen belong to the keyword itself. That is, the Common Magic Keyword is tailored to include only five abilites ever, and any more must perforce be outside of the keyword.
[*]The general rule on starting ability applies only where not otherwise stated. That is, first follow the specific rules stated in the book, and then, if no other rule applies, then the rule about keywords applies.
[*]Magic abilites (at least common magic abilities) are an exception to the keyword rule. That is, they are part of the keyword, but still start at 13 as a specific exception to the general rule.
[*]There is no keyword rule that says that related abilites start at keyword level.
[*]There is a keywork rule, but it only applies post chargen.
[*]Something else that I'm not seeing is going on. [/list:o]

For any answer above, consider:
1. What the impact is on the Common Magic Keyword. For example, if 1 is the case, then, unless the rating represents a CM religion, the keyword doesn't represent anything after chargen.
2. What happens if you raise the CM keyword with Advanced Experience?

Obviously if anyone besides Peter wants to explain it to me, that's just fine, too.

Mike

[Alai]

So, given that Common Magic Abilities seem to apply to the Common Magic Keyword, which of the following is the reason why the ones beyond the first 5 start at 13 instead of 17.

I don't see any rules basis for that interpretation, myself.  (Hence the different one I posted earlier in this thread.)

Only the five abilities chosen belong to the keyword itself. That is, the Common Magic Keyword is tailored to include only five abilites ever, and any more must perforce be outside of the keyword.

I think that's the most reasonable construction to put on it (in the case where the 'keyword' is entirely ad hoc, at least). IMO to call any arbitrary collection of common magic a 'keyword' is at best, pushing the envelope (at worst, more like jumping the shark), so whether to appy the 'keyword rule' in such cases is a judgement call/matter of taste.

1. What the impact is on the Common Magic Keyword. For example, if 1 is the case, then, unless the rating represents a CM religion, the keyword doesn't represent anything after chargen.

IMO, it doesn't. (In any event.)  Really represent anything, that is.

2. What happens if you raise the CM keyword with Advanced Experience?

Advanced experience as such is at chargen, really, so I don't think the question really arises. Assuming something like 'Saga experience', it'd be legitimate to rule either way (on the basis of it being a 'technical keyword' on the one hand, or 'not much of a keyword', on the other). If the issue came up, I'd a) be surprised anyway even wanted to do this, and b) rule on the basis of taste, according to whether the 'keyword' in question seemed in the least bit coherent or well-rationalised.

OTOH, I find the saga experience rule annoying unsystematic, too, but that's another story.

[Mike Holmes]

IMO, it doesn't. (In any event.) Really represent anything, that is.

See, if this is the case, and the CM keyword is an exception this way, then why not do the simpler thing, and just say that the character starts with 5 CM abilities at 17? Why have the keyword at all?

Going back to the discussion about Common Magic religions, on the HQ rules list, the last place I got to with this was here: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/HeroQuest-rules/message/18296

Note that many of my conclusions may be erroneous, there, but I ws trying to make sense of what info was bding given to me. Basically, it seems that if you take a Common Magic religion, then either it is part of the character's Homeland keyword, in which case it uses that keyword's level, or it's selected individually, in which case, it's a specialized magic religion, and gets its own keyword and it's own rating.

Most importantly, it doesn't ever seem that the CM keyword itself ever contains anything but the magic abilities in question, unlike any of the other magic keywords that always come with some associated mundane abilites. The point being that, if they keyword only works on these five abilities, then, again, what does it indicate? It's not, apparently general accumen with CM, or new abilites would apply. It's not the magic of one religion, it could come from several, as I understand it (and, in any case this would indicate that you could add more at the same level). So I'm not seeing how one could improve to raise the level. Meaning that not even the use of the saga system would make sense to adjust the level. Meaning, again, that I can't see any reason for the keyword's existence at all.


There's an associated question - what level do Affinities and Grimoires start at? If I'm an Initiate of Destor, and I pick up a sub-cult affinity, what level does it start at? Is that Affinity part of my Initiate of Destor keyword? That is, if the keyword goes up, does the ability go up with it? What about Grimoires? What if I find a Grimoire that's central to my order, but which was lost a long time ago? If I learn it, what level does it start at? Is it part of the keyword? Will it go up if the keyword does?

As it happens, I'm just in the middle of giving some of my players some keyword levels ala the Saga System. So this isn't an idle inquiry. I can think of at least one place where the answer will be important.

Related, if I pick up a follower related to my keyword (and old soldier buddy), does that start at keyword level, or 13? I know that it says that freindships with spirits start at 13, even for a practitioner with a 17 keyword.

It seems to me that what's indicated here is that many of these abilities are gotten because of the keyword, but not in some technical way, a part of the keyword. But I may be grossly incorrect, please let me know if I am.

Mike

[Alai]

See, if this is the case, and the CM keyword is an exception this way, then why not do the simpler thing, and just say that the character starts with 5 CM abilities at 17? Why have the keyword at all?

Well, quite.  I think ad hoc keywords are a rather poor idea, and the CM keyword is explicitly entirely ad hoc.  If OTOH, you want to reverse-enginneer a Good Reason for this Wise Decision...  I can only wish you good luck.

Note that many of my conclusions may be erroneous, there, but I ws trying to make sense of what info was bding given to me. Basically, it seems that if you take a Common Magic religion, then either it is part of the character's Homeland keyword, in which case it uses that keyword's level, or it's selected individually, in which case, it's a specialized magic religion, and gets its own keyword and it's own rating.

I don't think the rules intend either of those;  rather, they anticipate you'll select from one common magic religion (or cherry-pick from several), and those abilities will be at the rating of your "Common magic keyword", which is different from either of the above. Either of the above might have been clearer, mind you.

Essentially, there are three (ok, four) possibilities here:
[list=1]
[*] Your specialised religion is a common magic one. Not really supported in HQ-Glorantha, either due to omission, or non-occurrence (or maybe a bit of both). It's not too hard to imagine what this'd look like, though: as Mike mentions, you'd expect it to have the 'usual' things a magic keyword does, and otherwise behave similarly.
[*] Your "common magic keyword" all comes from a given common magic religion, or some other 'coherent' source. I'd treat this as a'mini-keyword', in that you can indeed add things to it, at the same rating, provided they're from the same source/are equally cohesive, and their collective rating can be raised (by the somewhat unsatisfactorially ah hoc sage procedure, but all the same...).
[*] Your common magic 'keyword' consists of 5 ad-hoc abilities -- from different religions, or 'home brew'. I'd not treat this as a keyword, in the above sense. Indeed, I'd allow it purely to be 'sideways compatible' with HQ on the topic.
[*] You have no common magic at all; problem solved.
[/list:o]

There's an associated question - what level do Affinities and Grimoires start at? If I'm an Initiate of Destor, and I pick up a sub-cult affinity, what level does it start at? Is that Affinity part of my Initiate of Destor keyword? That is, if the keyword goes up, does the ability go up with it? What about Grimoires? What if I find a Grimoire that's central to my order, but which was lost a long time ago? If I learn it, what level does it start at? Is it part of the keyword? Will it go up if the keyword does?

For 'new' affinities and grimoires: for me that's a function of the structire of the religion, or other practice, that underlies the keyword. If you're just getting an ad hoc 'extra', as in if you decide to take a Starkval affinity via the 'sub-cult' rule, just cos, it starts at 13. If your local Destor practice all worship some specific sub-cult (or a sizable number of them, as a 'standard variant'), I'd start it at the keyword rating. Likewise for your sorcerous example.

As it happens, I'm just in the middle of giving some of my players some keyword levels ala the Saga System. So this isn't an idle inquiry.

No, but it it does fall under 'making a rod for your own back'. ;-)

Cheers,
Alex.

[Mike Holmes]

Well, quite.  I think ad hoc keywords are a rather poor idea, and the CM keyword is explicitly entirely ad hoc.  If OTOH, you want to reverse-enginneer a Good Reason for this Wise Decision...  I can only wish you good luck.

What I'm looking for are the ramifications of this if it's the case. Hence why I asked about increases via the saga system and how they'd work.

Note that many of my conclusions may be erroneous, there, but I ws trying to make sense of what info was bding given to me. Basically, it seems that if you take a Common Magic religion, then either it is part of the character's Homeland keyword, in which case it uses that keyword's level, or it's selected individually, in which case, it's a specialized magic religion, and gets its own keyword and it's own rating.

I don't think the rules intend either of those; [/quote]Well, these are the clarifications that I gleaned from Rory when asking specifically about these things. Actually his attitude seemed to indicate that I was taking it all too seriously, and that if I just loosened up a bit, and used some common sense it would all sort itself out. Somehow that wasn't helpful - in any case, I'm always digging into these things to learn the why's and wherefores.  

rather, they anticipate you'll select from one common magic religion (or cherry-pick from several), and those abilities will be at the rating of your "Common magic keyword", which is different from either of the above. Either of the above might have been clearer, mind you.

Again, he was very clear here, that the common magic religion selected did not fall under the CM keyword. Hence why there's no slot next to it in the keyword list to write anything down, for instance. Or, at least, that was my supposition about why that made sense with what he'd said.

[/quote]Your specialised religion is a common magic one. Not really supported in HQ-Glorantha, either due to omission, or non-occurrence (or maybe a bit of both). It's not too hard to imagine what this'd look like, though: as Mike mentions, you'd expect it to have the 'usual' things a magic keyword does, and otherwise behave similarly.

Your "common magic keyword" all comes from a given common magic religion, or some other 'coherent' source. I'd treat this as a'mini-keyword', in that you can indeed add things to it, at the same rating, provided they're from the same source/are equally cohesive, and their collective rating can be raised (by the somewhat unsatisfactorially ah hoc sage procedure, but all the same...).[/quote]First, again, the implication was that, in fact, under many circumstances it is the case that a CM religion can become your specialized magic keyword. Given that you can find Donandar listed in the section of many homeland's specialized religions, for instance, it's pretty obvious that you can do this there. If, OTOH, the religion was part of the homeland in terms of being in the CM section of it's listing, then it was free as part of the homeland keyword.

Second, CM keywords do come with all of the nifty stuff that other religion keywords come with in terms of a piety ability, and mundane abilities. In fact, I think they tend to have more than most other specialized magic religions. So I don't think that the above options are true. Or, at least, the word is that this is definitely not what's intended.

Your common magic 'keyword' consists of 5 ad-hoc abilities -- from different religions, or 'home brew'. I'd not treat this as a keyword, in the above sense. Indeed, I'd allow it purely to be 'sideways compatible' with HQ on the topic.

Seems that this is what's being indicated to me.

I'd be happy to hear if I misinterpreted Rory (he did just stop responding after the post in question, possibly out of frustration).

For 'new' affinities and grimoires: for me that's a function of the structire of the religion, or other practice, that underlies the keyword. If you're just getting an ad hoc 'extra', as in if you decide to take a Starkval affinity via the 'sub-cult' rule, just cos, it starts at 13. If your local Destor practice all worship some specific sub-cult (or a sizable number of them, as a 'standard variant'), I'd start it at the keyword rating. Likewise for your sorcerous example.

So, basically, the keyword rule. I can work with that. I'd like to hear Peter's opinion on that, however, because I want to know how much of an exception the CM rule is, if at all.

As it happens, I'm just in the middle of giving some of my players some keyword levels ala the Saga System. So this isn't an idle inquiry.

No, but it it does fall under 'making a rod for your own back'. ;-)

I had to look that phrase up. :-)

If it means what I think, then you have to realize that this is sorta my thing. Basically, sure, I could just rule my way out of this, and not worry about it. But I find that by poking and prodding at things like this that I get at the underlying principles, and that means that either I end up not making changes that aren't unneccessary (it's nice to be able to refer to the rules as written), or when I do make a change, it's a well informed change. More importantly, I just like to discuss. :-)

Yeah, I know it's annoying sometimes.

Mike[/quote]

[Alai]

First, again, the implication was that, in fact, under many circumstances it is the case that a CM religion can become your specialized magic keyword. Given that you can find Donandar listed in the section of many homeland's specialized religions, for instance, it's pretty obvious that you can do this there. If, OTOH, the religion was part of the homeland in terms of being in the CM section of it's listing, then it was free as part of the homeland keyword.

Second, CM keywords do come with all of the nifty stuff that other religion keywords come with in terms of a piety ability, and mundane abilities. In fact, I think they tend to have more than most other specialized magic religions. So I don't think that the above options are true. Or, at least, the word is that this is definitely not what's intended.

OK, I was forgetting about, oh, just about all of the full-length examples in HQ book, it must be said:  I was thinking in terms of the ones in the Homelands sections, which I suppose is going to be necessarily abbreviated, as all the magical write-ups there are.

But can you clarify how the options I enumerated are 'not true'? The case you're describing was not merely on the list, it was _top_ of the list.

I do, however, disagree with the 'free as part of your homeland' interpretation. Whether's it's "free with" is semantics -- you get 'em both, what precisely did you pay, separately or otherwise, for either? But they're described as separate keywords, this is pretty clear: see pp17-18, and the character sheet, facing.  The metaphor that one might be 'part of' the other after all breaks down completely in the case of common magic, as you're expressly _not restricted_ to your homeland's common magic, only. (I can imagine cases where for a given character conception this might also be the case for a 'specialised religion', in which event you're into 'narrator decides' territory. (Not that we ever really left.))

[Ian Cooper]

If you're following the 'standard' HQ pattern of keywords where each character gets a CM keyword _and_ a 'specialised religion' keyword, it naturally arises what happens if your 'specialised religion' _is_ a common religion.  

In fact HQ suggests a beginning character has either a common magic keyword or a specialized magic keyword. A narrator may allow both, but its not the standard (altough a lot of folks probably play it that way.

[Mike Holmes]

Yeah, Ian got it. It's a question of whether or not it "costs" your specialized magic keyword slot, and whether a stingy narrator wants to restrict the player to either one or the other of common magic and specialized magic. For example, if one has a common magic religion as part of their homeland keyword, I think that the rules as they've been explained to me would indicate that this doesn't "cost" anything. That is, it's not the same as having a common magic keyword.

To be more precise, if the narrator dissallowed the player having a character with both kinds of keywords by the rules on P 18, then the player could still take the common magic religion offered by his homeland. Those skills and all would still be available. Just not the common magic itself such as would be under the CM keyword.

OTOH, if the ability were not part an offered common magic religion for the homeland keyword, but taken instead using profession as a rationale, Lanbril for example in many places, then that counts as the character's one specialized magic keyword. Thus one can't be an Initiate of some other god, and have the Lanbril CMR keyword to start.

This all comes down to the rationales for how to balance starting characters. In general the idea seems to be to give them all the same sort of keywords - one homeland, one occupation, the Common Magic Keyword and/or a specialized magic keyword. As such, the question of when something is it's own keyword, and when it's an addendum to another is very important.

The problem is in having religion "keywords" that are actually addenda to the other keywords. Basically in coming up with the explanation regarding the CMR being listed in the homeland under common magic, you make those homelands with one (or more - not sure if there are any with more than one) actual CMR keywords more attractive than those without.

Even more potentially confusing is that it would seem that philosophically, if I understand the argument correctly, every CMR has associated abilities. It makes sense - as part of the description of the overall keyword, if the player can come up with an ability that "should" be something that the character should have as a member of the CMR, he'd get it at 17. Essentially this means that the character has keywords for each of these religions, just that they're not enumerated at start because they probably don't provide too many abilities, or just ones that are largely uninteresting.

To get really theoretical about it for a moment, the idea is that all characters have a potentially infinite number of abilities if you take the time to define them all. As a member of a family a character may have had a Burp Loudly ability that they learned from their older brothers that makes sense with any homeland keyword in which the characters are raised in families (pretty much all of them). And myriad other abilites. These, if needed, can all be brought out at keyword level if/when neccessary, in theory, as this is one of the things that keywords provide - filling in the cracks in the character enumeration. From this POV, CMRs in which the character is involved as part of being a member of the homeland certainly provides this sort of support. And I don't dispute this on a philosophical basis.

OTOH, I've heard other sources say that that's just not true - basically, there's not really much of anything going on in the religions that only have CM magic listed for them, such that membership means only having the magic in question. Essentially they don't merit relationships to religious communities or other abilities taught from participation, because they're simply too unorganized. It seems to me that this is a matter of perspective.

I think that they're both sorta true. What's problematic, however, is how many of these keyword addenda are allowable. Ones with a lot make such homelands pretty attractive. When people discuss this stuff, they then bring up the idea of limiting the number of CMR keywords associated with the character in some way. I've heard two bandied about as a good limit, for example. But some homelands only have one keyword listed.

Personally what I'm doing is to just state explicitly that all religion keywords are their own, separate, thing. This is not to make them "modular" so that you can mix and match religions between homelands - I might allow this with a good rationale, but that's not my intention. I agree that most religions are specific to certain homelands (even if they have the same name, they'll vary from homeland to homeland). The rationale is that in having the religion keyword separate from the homeland, you can discreetly "charge" for it, putting the balance back in chargen by, say, allowing each character to have only two religions overall (in my alternate universe, I only allow one as there are fewer religions). If this seems too restrictive, then perhaps three or more religion keywords could be the standard starting allotment. Not just CM religions, but all religions. So, if the limit is two, an Orlanthi could take Storm Pantheon and Flesh Man, or another combination like Storm Pantheon and Lanbril. Or even Flesh Man and Lanbril for a well explained character.

Other simple solutions present themselves as well.

The clarification I don't like, is calling a common magic religion keyword a speicalized magic keyword. Not only is if potentially confusing (I thought these were mutually exclusive for a long time), but it's an exception to the pattern again. Basically other religions have religion keywords separate from magic keywords. One can be a member of the Orlanthi Storm Pantheon, and simply be a worshipper, not an Initiate, or a Devotee - those are separate considerations. Note that this basic level of participation gives the character some very basic magic abilities - calling on their god for intervention, for instance. The majority of the magic is in the specialized magic keywords themselves, however.

As such, it's a simple thing to say that the Common Magic Keyword is simply the magic delivering keyword associated with worship of CM religions. That is, the religion keyword itself just establishes one as a member of the religion, and the CM keyword itself is where the associated magic abilities reside. Given that set up and how the CM keyword abilities are constructed, I'd rule that in fact, CM represented general facility with the magic of the mundane world, and allow new abilities to be added at keyword level.

This seems powerful, but there are mitigating factors in terms of how CM is constructed as compared to other magic keywords (in terms of, for example, breadth). Also, I'd only allow the abilities to start at 17 if that's how other magic abilities are supposed to be constructed. At the moment, I'm a little hazy on the ruling there. But the point is that whatever ability level I started CM at would be equal to what other abilities start at in other forms of magic. That is, I'm not suggesting that CM should start at keyword level, and other forms at 13. Just that they should be equal in this regard.

That said, if abilities were supposed to start at 13, then the keyword would be useless, again. So I'm tempted to go with 17 for all, again generalizing off of the basic keyword rule.

Mike

[Alai]

In fact HQ suggests a beginning character has either a common magic keyword or a specialized magic keyword. A narrator may allow both, but its not the standard (altough a lot of folks probably play it that way.

Hrmm.  Well, it explicitly mentions both possibilities, but I suppose you could argue thusly, from the parenthical nature of the possibility of 'both'. OTOH, we then immediately get to the examples, 2/3 of which do have both, and the other has the player explicitly turning down the option.  So add Gre-- eh, I mean, Kathy to 'a lot of folks'?

[Alai]

I'm not sure we're really 'on' any specific point at this late juncture in this thread, much less the original one, so perhaps we're approaching the degree of Drift where thread death and/or split would be the more merciful alternative. As this stand, tangents seem to be getting sparked off any never really resolved. But heedless of my own advice, once more unto the breach...

For example, if one has a common magic religion as part of their homeland keyword, I think that the rules as they've been explained to me would indicate that this doesn't "cost" anything. That is, it's not the same as having a common magic keyword.

I'd like to see a rules citation as a basis for this. Or at least, a slightly more specific appeal to authority.

To be more precise, if the narrator dissallowed the player having a character with both kinds of keywords by the rules on P 18, then the player could still take the common magic religion offered by his homeland. Those skills and all would still be available. Just not the common magic itself such as would be under the CM keyword.

Note, however, that with about 1.5 exceptions, the CMRs listed in the "Homelands" section _do not have_ any listed 'skills and all' type of abilities, other than CM magical abilities themselves. (And the ones that do, very much smack of 'specialised religions by other means'.)

OTOH, if the ability were not part an offered common magic religion for the homeland keyword, but taken instead using profession as a rationale, Lanbril for example in many places, then that counts as the character's one specialized magic keyword. Thus one can't be an Initiate of some other god, and have the Lanbril CMR keyword to start.

Personally it strikes me as considerably less tortuous to simply say Lanbril is a "specialised religion that teaches common magic", or more to the point, just a 'religion' that does so, and boot the distinction for all purposes.

To get really theoretical about it for a moment, the idea is that all characters have a potentially infinite number of abilities if you take the time to define them all. As a member of a family a character may have had a Burp Loudly ability that they learned from their older brothers that makes sense with any homeland keyword in which the characters are raised in families (pretty much all of them).

IMO no, it doesn't.  Not unless your "Homeland keyword" is so specific as to be defined in terms of your particular family. Take this to its not-very-logical conclusion, and you can argue _anything_ 'into' a keyword. Yes, all characters have a potentially infinite number of abilities, that we have't yet enumerated all of due to finite time and character sheet space, but that's quite orthogonal to the issue of what is or isn't part of a keyword.

OTOH, I've heard other sources say that that's just not true - basically, there's not really much of anything going on in the religions that only have CM magic listed for them, such that membership means only having the magic in question. Essentially they don't merit relationships to religious communities or other abilities taught from participation, because they're simply too unorganized. It seems to me that this is a matter of perspective.

Not perspective, instance. In Glorantha this clearly seems to be true of some common magic 'religions', and not true of others -- hence my earlier enumeration of the 'types' of source of CM. (That Mike disagreed with in some non-specific way.)

Personally what I'm doing is to just state explicitly that all religion keywords are their own, separate, thing.

I'm not clear how this differs from the HQ position on this. Unless you specifically mean, to disallow the 'mix and match' style of CM keyword a la p 18? (Probably a Very Good Thing.)

The clarification I don't like, is calling a common magic religion keyword a speicalized magic keyword. Not only is if potentially confusing (I thought these were mutually exclusive for a long time), but it's an exception to the pattern again.

To what pattern? But yes, this is confusion on a stick, but almost irredeemably so, given the breadth with which HQ uses the term 'common magic'. To wit, a type of keyword, on the one hand, and in effect, any religion which contains on the one hand, talents, or one the other, more than one type of 'otherworldly' magic. (Not to mention the whole confusion over the term 'innate', but let us not venture there...)

Basically other religions have religion keywords separate from magic keywords. One can be a member of the Orlanthi Storm Pantheon, and simply be a worshipper, not an Initiate, or a Devotee - those are separate considerations. Note that this basic level of participation gives the character some very basic magic abilities - calling on their god for intervention, for instance. The majority of the magic is in the specialized magic keywords themselves, however.

But this would be exactly the same with any common magic religion that was a 'cultural default', and actually possessed such abilities -- e.g. the Teshnos case, and in effect the Seven Mothers in Tarsh, though technically that's structured a little differently.

Given that set up and how the CM keyword abilities are constructed, I'd rule that in fact, CM represented general facility with the magic of the mundane world, and allow new abilities to be added at keyword level.

This of course means that your test as to the 'appropriateness' of something for inclusion in a common magic keyword now involves a cosmological criterion, rather than a game-mechanical one (feats, etc, vs talents, as per the concentration rule), or of character logic. It's also essentially using the logic that the CM keyword is some sort of 'big ability', rather than the usual pattern of a keyword, in a way that HQ doesn't really provide supporting machinery for. And doesn't this get us back to 'mix and match' common magic?  I'm very unclear as to your intent here.

[Mike Holmes]

I've moved the discussion of common magic religions here.

I do think that the answers to the original poster's questions will be found in the rationales for the rulings on these things (including whether or not to use the Glorantha specific rules as is for the other setting). But I agree we've gotten far afield in trying to find it.

Mike