Turtle player - advice?

[Kerstin Schmidt]

I'm not claiming that I'm the custodian of anyone's enjoyment.
(Nor is S'mon as far as I can see.)

I have stated clearly that if I remain unable to solve certain problems with this player, I might drop him from my game. I definitely am considering that option, as I've posted more than once in this thread.  

However, the reason I started this thread and am still posting to it and reading is that I'm looking for solutions to a number of problems I've identified above.  Here's my post with the problems-and-sketchy-ideas-for-solutions checklist again.  

I'd appreciate specific input on those items if you can give it, or questions if anything needs clarifying.  

1. Can't allow him to dominate the shared imagination space 'from the outside' with his balors and twisted, unworkable nightmares.
Possible solutions: Nothing specific in sight yet - but I've only just hit on the problem. May involve working both with him to stop doing whatever it is he does, and with the other players to defend our SIS against his balors. In the final analysis, if I can't solve this with him at the table, get him off my table.

2. Want to limit the time he wastes on talking in circles and infecting other players with his do-not-engage approach.
Possible solutions: Setting time limits can work if used occasionally and with good reason, but too much of that would be destructive for other dimensions of the game.
Talking to him more may help. He is aware that he likes talking ideas a lot, and is prone to using up more time with that than is appropriate in my short game sessions. He'd like to have longer time slots for my game but due to our individual schedules that's not realistic at present.

3. Would like to show him ways to get into the shared imagination space by playing in it and starring in it. Like he did in the scenes he played as bodyguard/future bodyguard to the NPC prince.
Possible solutions: Not sure. He'd like to return to times and places where he can be the prince's bodyguard again, I'm sure. Might happen, but it's not likely to dominate the game. I have several more ideas for possible scenarios with the PCs 'hosted' by other NPCs in other times and other places. This might turn out to help him enter the SIS more, OTOH it might also cause him to become disoriented and clamped-down again because it's opening up additional options.

[Kerstin Schmidt]

One important thing to note here is that we're now two of the turtle's GMs posting to this thread. Just to clarify, while S'mon and I agree on a number of things, that doesn't mean that everything S'mon says necessarily reflects my thoughts or vice versa.  

For instance, generally speaking I don't think that our turtle's social compass is out of whack. I also definitely don't feel that the turtle is provoking me into booting him from my game.  To my mind the problem is both more serious and more complex than that.  I have analysed my take on the turtle in great detail in earlier posts, and I hold to that.

[andy]

StalkingBlue--

I was going to regale you with war stories of turtles that my group has had over the years, including those who left and those who stayed. As I alluded to in my first post, turtles are not usually my problem players-- I have far more "issues" with power gamers/rules lawyers. However, I realized that there was one common theme that flows through each successful resolution of player problems....direct confrontation of the issue.

And I do mean direct. Much of this thread has been very good advice as to how to get inside your turtle's head and modify his behavior by adjusting your reward system to meet his perceived needs. For players on the edge, this is the preferred course of dealing.

Not so for the extreme cases. Direct confrontation of the problems and the issues with him in a one-on-one, out-of-game conversation may be the only way to deal with him short of summary ejection. It is obvious from your choice of powerful words ("twisted, unworkable") that you are extremely frustrated by his conduct-- this is what Walt picked up on early in this thread. Sit him down and tell him directly without loaded language, but also without mincing words. Explain that the game cannot go on as it is, and that unless some middle ground is reached, you will have to eject him(which you don't want to do).

Make your social contract explicit, not implicit.

If he won't participate, then to hell with him-- you gave it your best shot.

I'll shut up now.

Andy

[Kerstin Schmidt]

Not so for the extreme cases. Direct confrontation of the problems and the issues with him in a one-on-one, out-of-game conversation may be the only way to deal with him short of summary ejection. It is obvious from your choice of powerful words ("twisted, unworkable") that you are extremely frustrated by his conduct-- this is what Walt picked up on early in this thread. Sit him down and tell him directly without loaded language, but also without mincing words.

I've done this...

Explain that the game cannot go on as it is, and that unless some middle ground is reached, you will have to eject him(which you don't want to do).

... but not this.


When I told him recently that I feel he's trying to keep my game small and predictable when I'm trying to open it up and encourage players to reach for bigger goals, he was terrified. He was sitting there with his ears between his shoulders and at the end apologised profusely and assured me definitely, definitely hadn't meant to.  To hear him, it was as if he'd just realised he'd run over my child with his car.  (Both child and car are fictional, created for illustration purposes only.)  I've never seen him like this: he's usually very balanced and calm in his outer demeanour, although I've seen the blood fall from his lips when a PC of his suddenly was in danger of dying.

My impression of him is that most of the turtle's behaviour is controlled by fear. Fear of what, I haven't been able to figure out yet.  I can emphasise with that to some extent, and I've had some instances of getting through to him and having him open up a bit, which gives me cause to hope.  I'm not looking for a fairy tale solution here, I don't think that's realistic. But I do hope that I can find a workaround together with him.  

If I'm right about the fear, treading gently will be essential - all while being open of course. I can say to him that although I like playing with him, in some respects he frustrates me and harms my game.  I don't think I can fairly tell him at this stage that I'm considering expulsion from my game - all the less because he knows that S'mon also has problems with him and the third GM in our group never invited him to her game in the first place.  All that would do I suspect is freeze him up completely.  

I'm not arguing against honesty here, mind you - but I do think that if I still have hope I should avoid anything that even a slightly paranoid mind might interpret as a veiled or not-so-veiled threat.  Does that make sense? :)

[Kerstin Schmidt]

I was going to regale you with war stories of turtles that my group has had over the years, including those who left and those who stayed.

I'd welcome any turtle stories that involve confrontation/discussion with the player and their outcome, of course.

[andy]

StalkingBlue--

While I applaud your sensitivity, I think that it will ultimately provide an insurmountable roadblock. Perhaps the best way to deal with your turtle is to explain what he needs to do and to avoid doing in order to stay in the game. His quivering response is in itself a defensive behavior that has influenced your actions. I think that you owe him, your players and yourself the unvarnished (but politely-phrased) truth.

What do you like about gaming with him? What are his positives? Why is having him at a game better than having an empty chair?

Back to my day job.

Andy

[ffilz]

Hmm, I haven't read every post in the thread, but I have a question: is it possible this player has a psychological problem? From your description, it almost sounds like he is paralyzed by fear. If he has a serious problem, you may need to decide if it's really your duty to deal with it. It's all fine and dandy to be inclusive, but when inclusiveness starts to destroy your enjoyment of a hobby, it's time turn around.

Hopefully this is a misread of the situaion.

Frank

[Kerstin Schmidt]

Perhaps the best way to deal with your turtle is to explain what he needs to do and to avoid doing in order to stay in the game.

That's why I started this thread, yup:  to find answers to the question of what exactly it is he does/refuses to do that harms my game, and what solution to offer him.

His quivering response is in itself a defensive behavior that has influenced your actions. I think that you owe him, your players and yourself the unvarnished (but politely-phrased) truth.

Hm, good point.  If I can find out what exactly he needs to do and not do to stop harming my game (and preferably, to enjoy it at least as much as he does now), I'll tell him.  I think I'll try my way once. If he's unresponsive, I'll have to be clearer obviously - only I don't think that is likely to bring desired results.

What do you like about gaming with him? What are his positives? Why is having him at a game better than having an empty chair?

I have talked about that at length in earlier posts. :)

[andy]

StalkingBlue--

Actually, your thread asks what you can do to engage your turtle and improve your game. Ask yourself (and the Forge) not what you can do for him, ask instead what he needs to do for you.


Similarly, while you have identified the things that he has done that you have liked, I'm not sure you've identified exactly what he contributes to your game on a game-in/game-out basis.  Other than sporadic fits of role-playing, what does he bring to the table?

He's a professional salesman--as such he is very adept at provoking the response that he wants. Something tells me that, with concrete expectations from you (akin to sales goals or quotas), he could rise to the occaision and give you what you need from him.

OK. Now I really will try to shut up.

Andy

[DannyK]

Jeez, I feel like I'm trying to psychoanalyze this guy on the basis of a few posts... but he sounds really anxious.  I wonder if a lot of his behavior -- the anxious chatter, the refusal to engage, the intense reaction to criticism -- is related to a form of social anxiety.  He may not be as frightened for his character as he is afraid of looking foolish or inept in front of other players.  This is, of course, a vicious circle, because the more anxious and obstructive he gets, the more negative feedback he gets, which drives his anxiety up another notch.  

The easiest way to figure out if this is the problem is to try a one-on-one session with him (if you're willing to invest that amount of time and energy into the problem).  If it's social anxiety, he should loosen up considerably when it's just the two of you.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Interestingly, I'm getting the idea that this fellow is infecting this thread, not only his group.

S'mon and Stalkingblue - this is the fourth page of discussion. It may be time to stop chewing on it verbally here, and to process what people have contributed. I suggest that your previous objections to any suggestions should be set aside. Just put all the suggestions together and let'em bake for a while.

Best,
Ron

[S'mon]

One important thing to note here is that we're now two of the turtle's GMs posting to this thread. Just to clarify, while S'mon and I agree on a number of things, that doesn't mean that everything S'mon says necessarily reflects my thoughts or vice versa.  

For instance, generally speaking I don't think that our turtle's social compass is out of whack. I also definitely don't feel that the turtle is provoking me into booting him from my game.  

Yup, SB and me often disagree strongly! :)

Social compass - I do think he takes away different stuff from what we & others say than was intended or than what most people would take, which I think is what Walt meant.  Nor does he see how his bad behaviour is harmful at-table.  He's not a bad person, he's not deliberately trying to cause trouble.

I don't think he is intentionally provoking us to boot him, but ever since we booted the creepy player I think he has been dwelling on the idea that he'll be next, in his paranoid fashion, which makes him more defensive and inclined to see everything we say OOC as a threat, which makes us more frustrated, which makes him _more_ paranoid, which...

[S'mon]

Hello,

Interestingly, I'm getting the idea that this fellow is infecting this thread, not only his group.

S'mon and Stalkingblue - this is the fourth page of discussion. It may be time to stop chewing on it verbally here, and to process what people have contributed. I suggest that your previous objections to any suggestions should be set aside. Just put all the suggestions together and let'em bake for a while.

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron - I agree re the infection thing (*brr*) I'm not sure what you mean by putting suggestions together and baking them?  Do you mean putting together a list of problems and possible solutions, as Stalkingblue has done earlier?  I agree it's good to focus on solutions (I particularly like the idea of sitting him down & setting him 'sales targets' to achieve in his play btw!), and not good to keep on rehashing our frustrations.  I think SB has worked pretty hard to keep this thread solution-focussed though.

[S'mon]

The easiest way to figure out if this is the problem is to try a one-on-one session with him (if you're willing to invest that amount of time and energy into the problem).  If it's social anxiety, he should loosen up considerably when it's just the two of you.

My experience has been that he actually clams up worse when talked to 1-1, his most common response to me is "This isn't an appropriate time to discuss it".  So I don't think it's socially-related anxiety per se, to me he seems like a very socially dominant personality (SB disagrees) in the way that he can influence groups of people to follow his own agenda and see the world through his (paranoid) eyes.  I do think he has a psychological problem, an overwhelming fear-response that severely impairs his functioning outside of the tightly drawn borders he seeks (as SB said earlier).  We all have our quirks and eccentricities but most people are able to keep theirs within socially acceptable parameters, it feels like his fear-reaction overwhelms his responses to stimuli.

I do think Andy's suggestions are very interesting.  Tell him what to do, what targets he needs to meet, and how to do it - essentially keep the borders tight, but redraw them.  I'm not certain this would give us a good play experience, but if he enjoyed operating within redrawn borders it might work.  I think it would take more than a talk about what we want, and his fear reponse makes us reluctant to threaten him.  I'm thinking that solid mechanical in-game rules - "do X, get a cookie" - that set the lines for him to follow and the rewards he'll get for achievement, might help a lot.  I certainly agree that system does matter.  Any thoughts/suggestions?

[Kerstin Schmidt]

Ok, let me barge in here and ask for a halt.  

I'd like a pause in discussions as Ron has suggested, if for reasons of my own.

Walt, if you're still reading I'd still very much like to hear your response to my last analysis, the one in my posts that directly followed your last post including my preliminary checklist.  
Please disregard the discussion that erupted after that, I think other people barging in here with sundry theories has muddied the waters again.
If you prefer, pm me about it.