White Wolf discussion (split)

[Ron Edwards]

What, did I stutter?

NEW THREADS. Please take all sub-topics to NEW THREADS. There are too many threads in this one spot. This thread can remain happy in its three-page "sets stage for multiple new threads" status.

Thanks,
Ron

[eyebeams]

Hey, I don't mean to pile on, but I have a question: which games do you consider to be trying to "shove the game author's creative agenda down the players' throats?" I've never gotten that impression from any of the games made by folks who frequent this site, but maybe I'm not understanding what you mean.

I'm talking about any game that will not support a kind of play that's a near-drift from the kind of play it explicitly supports. Of the current crop of games coming around, I think Scarlet Wake's playtest file is a good example of this. A minor instance is the otherwise excellent De Profundis and its failure to support truly collaborative fiction (actually, I considered floating a supplement to address this, and some of the concepts made it into Mage as a bluebooking variant).

Can you explain why White Wolf has to do that but indie games don't? I mean, I think it's a pretty consistent business logic for any company to expand their market, but why isn't it just as sound for the indie games?

Nothing to do with soundness at all. It simply isn't necessary to the commercial success of indie games. White Wolf has a large enough network that it must provide this sort of guidance and it has a business motivation to increase the profile of its IP.

From what I've seen, I'd say it's just as good, if not better, for indie designers to market to a "never roleplayed before" crowd. Why? Because indie games tend to be a big step in a new direction, and "seasoned" gamers are often enough either a) damn content with what they already have, or b) seriously resistant to change.* Whereas I can explain Universalis or Primetime Adventures or My Life with Master to my in-laws and they get it. How do I explain GURPS to someone who's never gamed?

Oh, I'm not saying it would be a *bad* idea. I've just never seen it tried, so complaints about a WW GMing chapter compared to Sorcerer's included essays strikes me as a basically apple/orange thing.

EDIT: Didn't see Ron's post until after I posted. Feel free to move it.

[Ron Edwards]

No biggie, Malcolm. Thread's closed now though.

Best,
Ron