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A simple question with no complex theory needed:  At which point does a character sheet contain too much or too little?

In my experience, there are two extremities that one can go to, though most fall in the middle.  

One is to have a small, simple 1/2 to 1 page character sheet where you write down the basics you need to play your character

Advantages:  Not much to look through, so stuff is easy to find.  You only have to keep track of a single page.

Disadvantages:  If the game has a lot of stats and abilities, you're probably going to have to write them all in manually, which can get tedious.  Also, you may not have access to everything you need, so you may end up consulting the rule book in the middle of play, which isn't fun.

The other extreme is to have a large, multipage "Character Tome" to use.

Advantages:  All the information you need is in your hand.  You don't have to write in any skills or anything, all you gotta do usually is put a little checkmark on the one you've got.  You don't have to consult rules as much.

Disadvantages:  That's a lot of stuff.  If you're not familiar with the layout, it might be difficult to find what you're looking for, especially if it's not well laid out.  It can be difficult to keep track of muliple pages sometimes.

Now, most games fall somewhere in the middle (I think White Wolf and D&D both use a single, double sided sheet), though I think I prefer the "Character Tome" concept myself, as I like to have all the information I need (or as much as I can get) in my hand for easy reference.  

Thoughts, comments?

-Eli, of Inner Circle

Quote from: Inner Circle IncA simple question with no complex theory needed:  At which point does a character sheet contain too much or too little?
...
Now, most games fall somewhere in the middle (I think White Wolf and D&D both use a single, double sided sheet), though I think I prefer the "Character Tome" concept myself, as I like to have all the information I need (or as much as I can get) in my hand for easy reference.

I feel strongly that all information needed at one time should fit on a single page.  If need be, you can split up the character sheets into different fields -- i.e. you can separate out a "worksheet" for calculating experience gains, and possibly a "combat sheet" which is different than the noncombat one.  Also, I allow that pages of background description can go on other sheets.  But I prefer that all effort be made to get the character-specific information on one page.  For that matter, I prefer that other reference (i.e. a table or two, maneuvers, etc.) also be included on the single side.  For example, in my Buffy convention game, I included most maneuvers, a list of the drama point uses, and the success chart.  

On the other hand, opinions differ.  The real key is clear organization.  There should never be flipping back and forth to find the information you need.  If it's multi-page, then each page should have a very specific purpose.  I highly approve of the attention paid to the character sheet, by the way.  This is the most frequently seen and used piece of the rules, and too often it sucks.

Indeed, I also believe that the information should be VERY clearly organized, especially if you're using muliple pages.  What I'm experimenting with is a mulipage character sheet where each page has a very clear goal attached to it (ie, "Skills" "Abilites" "Spells" etc.), yet there is a reference page where the user can easily fill in the most used stats, like HP, Common skills that player uses, common abilities that player uses, common spells, etc.  What I like about it, is that it adds a level of customizability to the sheet, so you don't have to flip and search for a skill that you use a lot, as you have it written down yourself in your field of "Common Skills".

Quote from: John Kim
I feel strongly that all information needed at one time should fit on a single page.

Not all systems will support this model.

Quote from: Vaxalon

Quote from: John Kim
I feel strongly that all information needed at one time should fit on a single page.

Not all systems will support this model.

Yeah, if I tried to play Rolemaster with a one page character sheet, well, I wouldn't know the important details of my character, because the first sheet is more general in scope.  In fact, the more sheets, the better, because now you have more detail to play with.  (Which is the point of playing RM...)

Note: I find that a lot of people are put off by RM, but it supports my Sim-Gam hybrid campaigns well.  

Cheers
Jonathan

2-4 pages sounds about right. Enough to have all the info, any more than 'all' the info you need is too much. That being said, I have designed very complete one page sheets, and I have also found that one page sheets are not enough. I think the really important thing that gets looked over a lot is making the sheet asthetically appealing, it puts a lot more draw on your game when the sheets look nice.

I come down squarely in the corner of a one page character sheet; one *sided* one page sheets if at ALL possible, though to date I can't say I've played any games that USE them, which frustrates me, personally. The problem with having the idea of a perfect sheet you like is that you have to be playing a game that only requires that, so anything other than rules-lite stuff is just not going to work for a briefer sheet - you can SAY this and that and you can summarize and abbreviate sections all you want, but you really can't - all systems have a basic level of detail needed on the character sheet and there is just really no way around it.

I relax my grip a bit on multiple sheets when it comes to optional or clearly separate items like spell lists and background and bios, I can see having them attached as OPTIONAL "supportive" info sheets - I don't like the idea of skills being on a different side or sheet though depending on the game you're running, I can see equipment and gear getting its own sheet, if you're doing a treasure-collecting game.

Quote from: ErrathofKoshYeah, if I tried to play Rolemaster with a one page character sheet, well, I wouldn't know the important details of my character, because the first sheet is more general in scope.  In fact, the more sheets, the better, because now you have more detail to play with.  (Which is the point of playing RM...)  

Well, I would say that's poor character sheet design.  Rather than having to flip back and forth between a general sheet and an extra details sheet, you should have all the relevant stats on a single sheet.  i.e. one combat sheet which has everything for combat, one magic sheet, and one non-combat sheet.  

When I played RoleMaster, I think I fit all the stats for normal play onto one page (though I think it was printed in a mid-to-small font -- I don't remember the exact layout).  I had one separate "worksheet" which had all the costs and levels for applying experience, but that was only needed when I leveled.  Maybe you use more options than we did (or perhaps were higher level), but I would think that field-specific sheets ought to still be workable.

I'm also in favor of one side of one sheet character sheets.   (They worked fine for White Wolf games).  On the back, scribble down anything important to you-- specific discipline rolls, a bit of history, combat maneuvers... whatever's useful for reference, infrequently.  (That kind of stuff is even better as a separate "reference sheet"-- single or double sided, so that your character stuff can stay up, while you flip the reference to whichever side you want/need).

I'd say multiple pages are OK for equipment, magic items, spells, etc.-- but that's the stuff that got on my nerves in the last D&D game I played in.  Our Wheel homebrew is scribbled on 5 1/2x4 paper, cause it's what we had on hand.  For the channelers, it's a bit too short, but for Tak (my character), there's room for more.  It's a very simple game with a unified mechanic though, so it's not surprising that it needs so little space.

I like to think I know a little about character sheet design.

In my mind, the character sheet is the single most important factor in judging a game system.

These days, I also am a firm supporter of the single page sheet. I have 2 criteria in juding the complexity of a game system:

1. If the character info can't fit one 1 page, it's too much information.
2. If I lose the sheet, and I can't recreate the character from memory, it's too much info.

The way I look at it, a character sheet is your character's resume. A resume should highlight your qualifications and experience, it's not an exhaustive record of everything you've done your entire life. A lot of things that people seem to think is extremely important to have on the sheet I consider to be irrelevant, or at best tangential.

-- Ben

Quote from: John Kim

Quote from: ErrathofKoshYeah, if I tried to play Rolemaster with a one page character sheet, well, I wouldn't know the important details of my character, because the first sheet is more general in scope.  In fact, the more sheets, the better, because now you have more detail to play with.  (Which is the point of playing RM...)  

Well, I would say that's poor character sheet design.  Rather than having to flip back and forth between a general sheet and an extra details sheet, you should have all the relevant stats on a single sheet.  i.e. one combat sheet which has everything for combat, one magic sheet, and one non-combat sheet.  

When I played RoleMaster, I think I fit all the stats for normal play onto one page (though I think it was printed in a mid-to-small font -- I don't remember the exact layout).  I had one separate "worksheet" which had all the costs and levels for applying experience, but that was only needed when I leveled.  Maybe you use more options than we did (or perhaps were higher level), but I would think that field-specific sheets ought to still be workable.

Well, actually, as you know if you've played RM, the first sheet carries most of the important data, including places for "commonly used skills,"  "commonly used attacks," and "commonly used equipment."It is possible to play using only this sheet after you've used the skill level calculation sheet to determine skill levels, but you will need that extra sheet if you want to access all of your skills.

RM also has character sheets based on your race and profession - this is where they could use improvement - they should only list the skills that receive bonuses or cost less than 3 or something on the profession sheet.  The rest of the skills should be placed on a summary sheet.

I like your suggestion that they separate combat from skills, that would be useful....  But magic is pretty much separated, if you use the spell list character sheets.

In general, when I use RM, my favorite skills, attacks, and equipment are on the first page, so I don't have to go looking for them.  Any other skill, attack, or piece of equipment are on the skills page or equipment page.  If I'm playing a magic user, my spell list provides with my spells.  The key is: GET THE RIGHT CHARACTER SHEET FOR YOUR RACE, PROFESSION, AND/OR MAGICAL REALM OR PROFESSION.  Of course, this means shelling out $7.50(for the pdf) for a whole bunch of character sheets, but it helps orgainze things better, that's for sure.  (Go to ICE's site store and hit the character sheet link to see what I'm talking about.)

BUT, back to the thread subject...  I think that the length of the character sheet should be determined by the intent of the game.  That being said, the fewer the pages the better!  

Cheers
Jonathan

Quote from: Inner Circle IncAll the information you need is in your hand.  You don't have to write in any skills or anything, all you gotta do usually is put a little checkmark on the one you've got.  You don't have to consult rules as much.

I prefer to give my players character sheets with all the skills on them because it reminds players, as their characters evolve, of the possible skills into which they can expand.  Similarly, I prefer character sheets which include all possible combat maneuvers (or other interaction maneuvers) on them to prompt the players.  I have found that players often forget new skills possibilities and combat maneuver possibilities unless these are facing them every time they look at the character sheets.

Of course, that concern is only relevant for sim, narr, and sim-narr campaigns -- in many gamist campaigns, part of the competition may involve who can remember on his or her own the combat maneuver possibilities without prompting.

Doctor Xero

Interesting topic. Of course there is no right answer, because different systems have different amounts of detail, and different players have different interests in detail.

The all the skills that exist on the sheet is nice - except if you have an open ended skill system.

One thing that I really liked when I had easy access to a way to get 11x17" copies was a two page sheet copied onto one side of an 11x17 sheet of paper. The paper could fold in half to be a single sheet, and also serve as a folder to hold additional sheets of notes and such, but you could open it up and see everything at once. Except the system I was using it in, you still had to put your spell list on the back. Oh, and the 2nd page also had all the formulas for the derrived combat abilities (a bunch).

Now I don't have so easy access to 11x17 so it's a bummer. I've been working on a simplification of the above system and now I have space for the spells on the 2nd page, which would be cool if I got put onto 11x17. It also now has ALL the combat stuff on the 1st page, the only need to look at the 2nd page is for detailed non-combat skill lists, languages, and spells. I still want to try and figure out how to get the normal distibution chart on the sheet though (this is the game that I've talked about a few times that uses the normal distribution).

I've also got a one page reference chart that has almost all the reference information regularly necessary for the game - though it doesn't have the combat maneuvers (but they actually resolve down to a couple different modifiers, I just have a full page of examples).

I've also got a little 2 sided business card with all the tables that I can't memorize a 6pt font that I keep in my wallet. I could run the game with only this card if I wanted to. I might not get the combat ability formulas right or something, but they would work.

So I guess my vote is that a 1 page sheet is the best. Baring that, you should strive to get as much on to as few pages as possible without resorting to microtype.

I like the folder idea, because the player needs a way to keep campaign notes, but in any game that allows for significant character development, the character sheets will need to be replaced, so you don't want campaign notes on the character sheet.

Frank

Ah, for the days of character _cards_.  3x5, with tape over the GP and EP slots to make writing and erasing easy.

This also explains how we got good characters using a straight 3d6 down the line for stats.  We used 3x5 cards because they were really, really cheap.

Quote from: Inner Circle IncA simple question with no complex theory needed:  At which point does a character sheet contain too much or too little?

I don't understand the question. Are you just talking about information that'll be referenced many times in a game, or that and information you might look up once every session or two? Eg, the former might only fill one sheet, but the latter could fill many. Where are you drawing the line on pertinent information?

Also, are you talking about system design so as to keep often referenced info to fit one page? Like a goal of system design?

Or do you just want me to tell you how I feel about it?