[GroupDesign] - Clusters 2 and 3

[Tobias]

I would prefer for their not to be an active, or conscious struggle. Maybe there's initial unconscious resistance (immune system), but once you're in, you're in.

Basically, the player IS the archivist, or the archivist-host symbiosis, but the archivist is always the driving force (whether in posession or not).

[Doug Ruff]

Here's a slightly different take on the 'Archivist vs. Host' control issues - although it is inspired by some of Sydney's earlier mechanic suggestions.

(Edit: I started this before I noticed your last post, Tobias.)

Once the Archivist possesses a Host, it becomes meaningless to talk about two separate identities.

Instead there is a single identity, with conflicting personality Traits - if the original Archivist had Determined, Studious and Absent-Minded Traits, and the Host had Light-Hearted, Lecherous and Vengeful Traits, you'd end up with a single Determined, Studious, Absent-Minded, Light-Hearted, Lecherous, Vengeful individual.

Who is going to end up rather confused.

I think this is where the 'multiple personalities' part comes in - it's only meaningful if there is a single entity suffering from the condition.

I would say that this individuals moral choices would shape how 'human' or 'Archivist' their outlook became.

If, as the character above, I indulge the Light-Hearted, Lecherous and Vengeful 'side' of my personality, I'm going to be very much in control of my 'Host' skills, but my Inner Archivist is going to be heading for serious Fade (trapped in host, cannot act) issues. This also neatly represents an Archivist's addiction to human emotions.

However, if I act more in accordance with my Determined, Studious and Absent Minded traits, this is equivalent of the Archivist personality asserting control - more access to mind powers and 'energetic' bonuses, but more damage to the Host.

In effect, at any point the character has accesss to all of the Host and Archivist skills, but suffers a penalty (or activation cost) depending on how much that side of their personality has been 'submerged' (perhaps this could be described as Latency.)

[Andrew Morris]

I think this is where the 'multiple personalities' part comes in - it's only meaningful if there is a single entity suffering from the condition.

That's a key point, I think.

[LordSmerf]

Ok then, ditching the idea of struggling for control... Moving on to balancing power usage.  Someone earlier suggested that the host gets some abilities and then the Archivist gets abilities which they can use to give bonuses to the Hosts actions.  I would suggest that the Archivist does not have an abilities list.  Instead the Archivist can simply do pretty much anything.  So if the Host uses its "athletic" ability to jump off a building the Archivist could boost that ability by an unlimited amount.  To generate balance some sort of horrible consequence should arise from overusing these powers.

Burnout: i was thinking... what if this were not burnout as i originally envisioned it (destruction of the mind, creation of a living vegetable, etc.) but instead is a burnout of personality.  Each time the Archivist has the host act against his original personality, part of that personality is destroyed.  It is not replaced.  So Archivists risk the creation of monsters.  People with no morality or emotion.  I think that that is kind of cool...

Thomas

[Andrew Morris]

Thomas, I like your take on burnout. It's creative and somewhat disturbing. As to the Archivists not having a skill set and just saying they are pretty much free to do whatever they want, so long as they pay for it -- I was thinking pretty much along those lines, myself. I thought that others in the group wanted a lower power level, though, so I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks on this point.

[Sydney Freedberg]

So much good stuff! [rolls up sleeves, rubs hands together]


(1) Who plays the Host?

Once the Archivist possesses a Host, it becomes meaningless to talk about two separate identities. Instead there is a single identity, with conflicting personality Traits...

Having originally suggested Host and Archivist be played by two different people, I'm now coming around to Doug, Tobias, and Andrew's position that they can be played by the same person -- especially if we work out good mechanics to incentivize "schizophrenic" behaviour (my idea about the opposed Limits for Host and Archivist is a first stab at this).


(2) In character / out of character Possession effects:

How about adding in another scale? Say in character/out of character to the power/safety balance....

I like this a lot. Mechanics suggestion: Perhaps an Archivist can choose either to boost the Host's existing Traits to higher levels -- staying in character -- or to use its own inhuman Traits -- going out of character -- at a higher price to the Host. So if you take your soldier-host's "Strong:2" trait and pump it up by 2 to "Strong:4," it inflicts 2 points of Burn. But if you give you soldier-host "Laser Beam Eyes:2," it inflicts twice as much Burn, 4 points.

Obviously, Og here was touched by the great spirits...

Heh. Funny, but also dead-on. Archivists need not only stay in character for the Host, but for the Host culture as a whole.


(3) Making Archivists Individual

I would suggest that the Archivist does not have an abilities list.

I was originally thinking of something along these lines too (in my "pick a number, any number" mechanic from the last thread) but it makes it hard to distinguish Archivists from each other. And remember that Host may change every single session, so the "continuing character" that each player primarily identifies with is their Archivist: If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.


(4) "We are the hollow men..." (T.S. Elliot)

.... a burnout of personality. Each time the Archivist has the host act against his original personality, part of that personality is destroyed. It is not replaced. So Archivists risk the creation of monsters. People with no morality or emotion.

Yes! Brilliant. I still think it should be possible for Possession to end up killing the Host plain and simple, but alongside the slow and subtle destruction of the Host's humanity -- Trait by Trait.


(5) Archivists Never Die, They Just Fade Away

... my Inner Archivist is going to be heading for serious Fade (trapped in host, cannot act)

Yes, "Fade"/'Fade-out" is definitely the term for what happens to Archivists, in contrast to "Burn"/"Burn-out"for what happens to the Hosts.

[Sydney Freedberg]

{Double-post again, darn it}

[LordSmerf]

If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.

Do you feel that a sense of ownership is pretty desirable for this game?  Examples of little/no ownership games: Great Ork Gods (or any system with ridiculously high character mortality), Universalis (played by the book no one really owns anything).  In these two games the focus is not on ownership.  In GOG the focus is on personality and hilarity.  In Universalis the focus is Story.  So again: do we want a sense of ownership for Archivists?  Or will differentiation by personality be enough.

Addendum: perhaps use the now-popular "Write 100 words about your motivation" except that we do not translate any of it into the mechanics...  Those 100 words are just there for you to reference...

Thomas

[Tobias]

If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.

Do you feel that a sense of ownership is pretty desirable for this game?  Examples of little/no ownership games: Great Ork Gods (or any system with ridiculously high character mortality), Universalis (played by the book no one really owns anything).  In these two games the focus is not on ownership.  In GOG the focus is on personality and hilarity.  In Universalis the focus is Story.  So again: do we want a sense of ownership for Archivists?  Or will differentiation by personality be enough.

Addendum: perhaps use the now-popular "Write 100 words about your motivation" except that we do not translate any of it into the mechanics...  Those 100 words are just there for you to reference...

Thomas

I get the feeling differentiation by personality/experiences/ArchivistSocialStanding/ArchivistMission will be enough. Note that the personality thing is really important for the Host, since they will become emotionless monsters otherwise (I like that idea as well). Personality is not some fleeting thing in this game-to-come.

I just thought - obviously, if the Archivist posesses a Host with values/personality close to his own, there will be less potential conflict, and he'll be more effective. How about we balance that out by having the lure of staying too long, the flesh-thrill, a bigger one? It's the ideal suit - are you going to take it off?

We could have a different 'focus' or 'power' for archivists, though, based on:

1. Who they were as human
2. How they went throught the initiation rite.

If people like getting this kind of cool caste/class like power. It is pretty likely Archivists will be similar powerwise, setting-wise, I guess, because they all transcend from a human nature in a similar manner.

[Sydney Freedberg]

If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.

...do we want a sense of ownership for Archivists?  Or will differentiation by personality be enough?

I get the feeling differentiation by personality/experiences/ArchivistSocialStanding/ArchivistMission will be enough. Note that the personality thing is really important for the Host, since they will become emotionless monsters otherwise...[and] if the Archivist posesses a Host with values/personality close to his own, there will be less potential conflict, and he'll be more effective. How about we balance that out by having the lure of staying too long, the flesh-thrill, a bigger one? It's the ideal suit - are you going to take it off?.

Quoting a quote of a quote - It's like Russian nesting dolls.

I'd agree that we don't want to reinvent the superhero game (that's [http=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=12795]TonyLB's job[/http]) and have players building characters off a big list of Kewl Powerz. But notice that a desire for some degree of game-mechanical individuation keeps showing up, as in Tobias's thought about a good match of personalities between Host and Archivist making it easier to act in the short run but harder to keep from "Fading" into one composite (and schizoid) being in the long run.

If we use a free-form traits system, then personality can be expressed mechanically as easily as Kewl Powerz (e.g. "Rigid Sense of Justice:4" or "Likes Flowers:2"). I'd argue for each Archivist being defined primarily by (1) its "residual" human traits from its pre-Archivist existence and (2) the unique set of Uncanny Knowledge traits it has picked up as an Archivist wandering the Great Library. The Uncanny Knowledge traits can manifest as appropriate Kewl Powerz (e.g. your understanding of the chi physics of life-force energy allows you to manifest the ever-popular laser beams from you Host's eyes), but they're not primarily about being superpowers.

That said, we have to have Matrix-style martial arts. We just do.

[Tobias]

I'd like to say just one thing:

A suave guy, feeling lucky
Scheduled a vasectomy
At "Schenectady urology"
he thought "small snip - no synecdoche"
it became "big snip - eulogy"

Ermmm - to justify - this is a brainstorm, right? I'm just keeping people's creative juices flowing. It ain't even a limerick.

I like Uncanny Knowlegz much better than Kewl Powerz.

[Andrew Morris]

And remember that Host may change every single session, so the "continuing character" that each player primarily identifies with is their Archivist: If every Archivist is like every other in game-mechanical terms, it's hard for players to feel ownership.

I'm not sure that's true -- as others have pointed out, the individual personality of the Archivist may be enough to allow the players to feel ownership of their continuing characters. Also, perhaps player ownership isn't something that we want or need. Personally, I think we do, but I'd like to hear from those who think we don't.

Another idea (assuming we want an advancement mechanic, which is by no means a certainty) is to allow the experience points (or whatever) to be used on the host for each session. So, effectively, XP is a measure of how good the Archivist is at finding and controlling suitable hosts. Each session, everyone gets to design a basic host, then improve it using their XP.

[Sydney Freedberg]

I like Uncanny Knowlegz much better than Kewl Powerz.

Thumbs up to that. Shall we make "Uncanny Trait" the official opposite of "Human Trait," and while we're at it make "Archivist Fade-Out" the official opposite of "Host Burn-Out"?

Now here's a thought: What if the Archivist can use its residual humanity (i.e. human traits) to reduce the risk of Host Burn-Out, at the price of a higher risk of Archivist Fade-Out? Tobias's semi-limerick gives me the image of an Archivist reciting some half-remembered childhood rhyme into the Host's head to calm the mortal back down after some particularly grueling episode of uncanniness.

Another idea (assuming we want an advancement mechanic, which is by no means a certainty) is to allow the experience points (or whatever) to be used on the host for each session. So, effectively, XP is a measure of how good the Archivist is at finding and controlling suitable hosts. Each session, everyone gets to design a basic host, then improve it using their XP.

I like this idea. Or, to think of it another way, an Archivist can improve its "Find Good Hosts" trait, which allows the player more control over what kind of Host the Archivist ends up in. Presumably the more specific requirements the Archivist has for the Host, the higher the difficulty level of finding someone who meets those requirements, and the higher the risk of getting some unwanted extra Traits you didn't expect; a high "Find Good Host" skill would help mitigate that ("A Shang Dynasty court fortuneteller with a strong sense of curiousity and family attachments in the province of Guei? It's gonna cost you..").

By the way, Time Travel is working its way into the consensus here. I find it cool but very, very hard to manage in play, so I wonder if it should be left as an optional element rather than a framework element for all settings -- but perhaps we should discuss that formally, alongside other options like parallel worlds? I hereby request the Foot's judgment on whether we should talk about this here or in another thread.

[LordSmerf]

Adressing advancement:  My suggestion would be that you are awarded these points...  You may use points whenever you jump to a new host.  All hosts have X number of Traits at level Y (or something), you may buy as many of these using Points as you wish, if you do not fill your quota the rest will be assigned (GM fiat?  roll on a table?  go around the table and each player throws one in?).  It simulates the "find host" thing, but still limits you in that if you spend all your points now to get the "perfect" host your next host will be almost completely out of your control...

Thomas

[GregS]

Alright, I'm jumping in late...and my appologies for that...but having read this thread I was suddenly inspired as to how I would want to play it.  Feel free to ignore them if I'm too late.

1)  Players as both A&Hs:  Personally, I think this is a critical concept to the game, and I disagree with the idea of them being split or being radically different.  The reason, simply enough, is that the Archivist, based on some of your initial language that I really liked, is surfing his own historical sense.  As such, he/she would probably be jumping into hosts that jive with his current intention.  I think the idea of a conflicting host is a bit repugnant, as that would probably not be an enjoyable experience for the Archivist and they wouldn't be inclined to stay.

2)  I definately think there should be some kind of cultural definitions (classes/clans/etc) to represent the various mentalities involved in molding the future.  Stereotypes are useful to games, provided they're not presented in a limiting fashion.

3)  The more I read about it the more I, personally, envision the Archivists role as more of a pilot than a conflicting entity.  And, on that line, I might design the dynamics of host/Archivist as more of a "pushing the machine too hard" type.  Maybe have two sets of stats that correlate, but are tested against each other.  I.e. Archivist wants to jump from rooftop to rooftop.  That's more than the host can do normally, and likely more than they are designed to do period, so there's a check of some kind, almost like a saving throw or piloting test, that compares the Archivist's control and balance vs. the hosts body.  Failure leads to blowouts, burnouts, or collapses in varying degrees while success means the body adapts and manages to function...for a while longer.

Just some thoughts.