Lulu vs all challengers

[Grand_Commander13]

Okie dokie fellas, I'll give you the scoop:

I am (obviously) intending on putting out an RPG in a couple months.  Current estimates put it at a page count of around 120.  As Lulu.com, they charge $4.53 plus two cents per page, giving me a cost of $6.94 for production.  Since I'm going to calculate all my prices with an order of 300 books, that puts the books at costing $4.30, which comes to a retail price of about $20 factoring in the fact I'm hoping to sell to distributors.

Now, I've heard people saying that Lulu is overpriced (in one thread, somebody cited ridiculous, false numbers against Lulu).  Where else could I go, and what could I expect to pay?  An online POD is nice, since people can make orders from the internet.  However, they don't have to be the people I buy from when selling to distributors or at conventions.

I mean, if I charge $20 for the print version off of Lulu.com (as in, they buy it from my online store there), I'd still make more than $10 off of the royalty (after their Lulu fee is considered).  Somebody mentioned Lightningsource.com as a much better alternative to Lulu, but LS.com doesn't do the whole ISBN deal for you, and getting an ISBN number yourself seems like a lot of heartache.  Plus I wouldn't know how to get my number/barcode on my book there anyway.  Not to mention the fact that LS irked me by not giving prices on their site.

So, as I asked before: Who should I go to for copies of my book that I want to sell to retailers, distributors, or people at conventions?  How much will they charge me?  Any and all help will be much appreciated.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

There exist a number of options. Right now, not only is the POD technology evolving, so are the companies who offer the services, and so are their various options. So this thread might give us all a current snapshot if people talk about what companies they've used.

I direct your attention to Express Media, which is just one of many companies who practice fast and reliable POD services, and to be absolutely clear, who use real ink, not toner. They did great work for Elfs and for My Life with Master. My unit cost for the two 100-copy print runs of Elfs was $2.01 per copy.

Ralph (Valamir) can probably name the company who did his printing for Universalis, and Luke, I'm not sure who you're talking to about your POD stuff, but chime in if you want. Brian Leybourne, who printed Of Beasts and Men?

Lulu.com is apparently doing a good job for a lot of people, but it's not the only game in town.

Oh! And I shall be very blunt: never pay anyone to "handle your printing" for you. All they're doing is using one of these companies and charging you needlessly. All of the information that you give them, to do it, is exactly what the company needs, so you should be doing this yourself. Several RPG publishers and entrepeneurs are making a pretty penny out of exploiting entry-publishers' ignorance about this.

Best,
Ron

[Tav_Behemoth]

The Masters and Minions books Express Media did for us looked good overall. Areas of black ink came out great. Grayscale pencil sketches came out somewhere from OK to tolerable; next time we won't be using grayscale illustrations at all.

The interface for dealing with them was wonky: we had assorted problems with the file transfer to their server, the format of images they wanted submitted, etc.  These would just have been annoyances if we had allowed more time for the print job (we submitted the files 8/1 and needed books 8/18, which they said they could do & just barely pulled off in the event).

We also had a problem with the printing on the inner cover; the ink flaked off & they let 'em past quality control anyways, so that the inner covers that arrived to us were often illegible. We're working with them now to redress these problems & will let y'all know how it turns out.

This was my first experience with printers, so I can't say whether this was just normal operating friction or a genuine cause for concern.

[Michael S. Miller]

Not to mention the fact that LS irked me by not giving prices on their site.

Let go of this "irk" right now. Printing books isn't like buying stuff at the supermarket where one price fits all. AFAIK, no respectable printer will have a list of prices, because the demands, and therefore costs, of each book are different. There are just too many variables (page size, paper stock, binding, color, quantity, file formats, etc.) to create a list. Lulu.com can have a one-price fits all because they control those variables (only allowing certain page sizes, etc.). If you're going with printers, you're going to want to solicit a quote. Send them the specs of your job, and in a day or three they'll tell you what the cost will be. As you're new to this, I suggest talking to people on the phone rather than using web forms, since the printing industry is loaded with jargon that the person on the other end of the phone can decipher for you. Of course, plenty of folks here can help out with that, too.

[Matt Wilson]

I direct your attention to Express Media, which is just one of many companies who practice fast and reliable POD services, and to be absolutely clear, who use real ink, not toner.

The proof copy I got from them had some weird gray problems which they told me had to do with a toner error. Do they do the proofs differently than the final print run?

[Grand_Commander13]

Let go of this "irk" right now. Printing books isn't like buying stuff at the supermarket where one price fits all. AFAIK, no respectable printer will have a list of prices, because the demands, and therefore costs, of each book are different. There are just too many variables (page size, paper stock, binding, color, quantity, file formats, etc.) to create a list.

^VERY good thing for me to know.  Until now, I was kinda ticked at these people...

Anyway, a lot of my images were going to be done in pencil.  Is the conclusion here that they're usually gonna be messed up, or will they probably be alright?

As far as the ISBN number is concerned, would that be a whole other topic in and of itself, or will most decent printers handle that stuff for me?

[Luke]

hi folks,

I'm a newly converted fan of the POD model. The No Press RPG Anthology was printed POD at Express Media. The quality is far and away above acceptable. It almost looks good to my ultra-critical eye.

However, I cannot in good faith recommend Express Media. I printed two books with them this summer, and if you'll excuse my candor, they fucked me. Both books arrived a day into GenCon and one of them was entirely unuseable.

I'm going to give these guys a try for the next run of the NPA:
http://www.rpiprint.com/

Brennan Taylor used them for his  run of Bulldogs. Full color POD! It looks gorgeous.

-L

[Luke]

Anyway, a lot of my images were going to be done in pencil.  Is the conclusion here that they're usually gonna be messed up, or will they probably be alright?

As far as the ISBN number is concerned, would that be a whole other topic in and of itself, or will most decent printers handle that stuff for me?

Printers are also notoriously slow in getting back to small, new clients with estimates. You want to flag printers who actually get an estimate back to you in a timely manner. It's indicative of how they will treat you further down the line. I had one printer get back to me after Burning Wheel had gone to press. "You still going ahead with that book?" Ohh boy was I glad I didn't go ahead with him.

ISBN number is something you buy from RR Bowker:
http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/index.asp
It is a separate thread, yes. Some printers take care of this, but I personally do not recommend letting them. Maintain control of your property at all levels.


As far as Pencil images go, they are tough to print. Michael Miller's book, FVLMINATA, has awesome pencils done by a professional artist. His book was printed on a traditional press.

However, pencils typically print gray and muddy. They are difficult to produce for  the artist and difficult to reproduce for the printer. Your best best for printing POD is high contrast grayscale or straight black and white images. POD printers are decent at capturing grays, but subtle variations in the values aren't recreated too well.

good luck,
-L

[Grand_Commander13]

Hmmmmmmm...  So pencil is bad.  I don't think our artist would mind, or have trouble with, switching to one of those inky pen things.  As in NOT ballpoint.

Anyway, be expecting a thread from me about ISBNs at some point in the future.  I anticipate needing a bit of help there.

And I wander off in search of printers other than Lulu.  I'll check Lightning Source out.  Though I don't think they offer the 8.5"x11" that I had my heart set on (they offer sizes very close to it, but not exactly).  And then I'll check out those other dudes too.  I'm gonna try to line up a final two, maybe three people to choose from once the book is finished.  None of that "have a book!, gotta find a publisher!" business.

[Matt Gwinn]

I used Berryville Graphics ( http://www.opm.com/home.html ) for my last print run of Kayfabe.  IIRC I paid less than $3 each for 80 pages perfect bound.  The interiors looked great and they were pretty quick.

We had some issues getting the cover to them, but I'm sure that was mostly my fault.  The only real problem I had with them was that some of the pages started coming out of a few copies after use.  Not sure if it was a one-time problem or not.

,Matt Gwinn

[Paul Czege]

Matt,

I used Berryville Graphics ( http://www.opm.com/home.html ) for my last print run of Kayfabe.

Didn't you also use them to print Mike's book, and there was a trimming issue with it? I'm thinking the two strikes rule applies to Berryville.

Paul

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Let's not forget something - a shorter print-time as offered by a POD routinely generates a specific behavior in the publisher: getting the necessary material to them late. This is a Bad Thing.

A traditional printer quotes very long lead times for a reason. Not only does the technology require a lot of time and labor, but publishers will be sending them badly or incompatibly formatted files, last-minute corrections, and graphics revisions, right up until the last microsecond, and often afterwards.

These printers' "galley proofs" step is built to add a delay into the process, as well as to land any actual responsibilty for problems where it usually belongs, onto the publisher. They are very stern about this and tell people what they don't want to hear: a month to two months, minimum, from the receipt of finalized material. If you add changes, you add delay, period.

In contrast, bluntly, the POD guys are all a little too eager to tout the speed of their processes. This has the secondary effect of publishers getting their stuff to them at the very last, last, last minute possible, and usually waiving the proofs step. It's not the POD guys' fault if the reality of the situation turns out a rough product, in these circumstances. If the publisher had not been expecting amazing service out of nothing, at the last possible second, then he or she would have retained the "proofs" step or been able to return the bad print run for replacement (which I might add most of them will do for free).

I think if you send them a rush job, and they rush it as per your instructions, skipping the proofs step, then the risk of a bad result leaps up astronomically. That responsibility for that risk rests mainly with you, as I see it.

Best,
Ron

[Tav_Behemoth]

Let's not forget something - a shorter print-time as offered by a POD routinely generates a specific behavior in the publisher: getting the necessary material to them late. This is a Bad Thing.

Point well taken, Ron; I'm a chronic procrastinator, so anything that enables my dysfunction is a problem.

Just to clarify, though, Express Media sent us a proof that looked great (well, the pencils looked OK). Then, in order to meet our deadline, they did a run of 300 copies to get to us at Gen Con. They held back 10-20% of these copies due to the ink flaking problem; another 50% of the ones they sent were seriously flawed (perhaps because the ink flaked worse during shipping), and only 5% had inner covers that actually matched the proof they sent.

Waiving a proof is bad business on a publisher's part, to be sure; delivering copies that don't live up to the proof is bad business on the printer's part, IMHO.

[jerry]

NAn online POD is nice, since people can make orders from the internet.  However, they don't have to be the people I buy from when selling to distributors or at conventions.

I love Lulu; they let me offload work that I just don't want to do.

For buying in quantity, though, they're not really the best choice. One question, though, is what quantity do you expect to be buying in? When you start selling to distributors and handling your own print needs, you have seriously escalated the amount of work you're going to be doing. Publishing is its own job.

Adding to the other great comments here, I would recommend not discounting your local resources. Other things being equal, if you can find a local printer who can handle your job it will probably be an easier and better experience for you.

And remember that when you order a thousand books, you can't change the typos when you discover some really bad ones three books in! Proof, proof, and more proof, backwards, forwards, and upside down if you can.

Jerry

[Chris Passeno]

The proof copy I got from them had some weird gray problems which they told me had to do with a toner error. Do they do the proofs differently than the final print run?

Proofs are commonly printed in the prepress department on their laser printer and then mocked up.  A weird gray problem is a symptom of a toner issue on it.

Proofs are not exact representation's of what the finished product will be.  Especially on color covers.  Normally color proofs are printed on a "acceptable color matching" inkjet proofer.  So expect the color to shift somewhat.  The only way to guarantee an exact color match is a costly "Press Proof", which probably isn't an option, unless you live right around the corner from the printer.