So now I work in an elementary school after-school program

[Sean]

Raven, I really think we should have started a new thread for this stuff or taken it offline, but I guess we're reaching conclusion now anyway. Next time I guess I'll take the initiative in switching out.

You wrote: "Unfortunately, Sean, "coping" is far different a thing than "indulging." One cannot learn to cope with anything by simply indulging in it."

'Cannot' is too strong, but I agree with the first sentence, obviously. In my case I had so much anger and fury over my home life during the age period in question that having any outlet for it other than fighting and/or self-destruction was healthy for me. But the play was a way for me to get those feelings out there and look at them, not just to express them for the sheer sake of violent self-expression. I'm a naturally introspective person and was even then. Others may need more guidance.

It sounds like you've done the research so I'll cede my lone psychologist's assessment of 'mixed and unclear' to your better defended claim. I will say, though, that this is one of those issues that's a little like (mild) corporal punishment. It depends on how sensitive your kid is. I've seen kids who are absolutely harmed by all physical discipline and I've seen kids who are helped by it in moderate and judicious application. Even if a general policy that says 'don't do it' is better, that doesn't mean there aren't individual cases that form an exception.

Likewise, opportunities for play-violence will mean different things to different children. It especially will vary based on how those opportunities are followed up on. But as I said, I cede the general claim.


You wrote: "It sounds like Judd is trying to do exactly as I'd do in his situation, though, by limiting the amount and making sure it isn't empty of consequence or consideration by the kids when it does occur in a game."

Agreed 100%. Not that Judd needs our approval.


I wrote:  "They can go get the occult manuals and summon spirits at the graveyard on their own. "

To which you replied: "Tangentially: that a vastly amusing choice of comment considering what faith of minister I am; however, to the current point, it certainly looks like a crack at me (or anyone else concerned by violent content): villification via absurdity. Even if it is not, I can't see its place in this discussion, nor its value in context."

OK: I'll explain then.

First of all, I'm aware of your faith, and I didn't think that graveyard spiritualism was part of the kind of solitary Wicca you practice.  (Apologies if I'm remembering wrong and it's some other kind of neopaganism though.) So it's hard to see how I'd think this was a crack at you, and in any case I didn't.

I'm speaking rather out of my own experience here. I and my friends, partly inspired by our D&D experiences, obtained several occult manuals, principally Regardie and Crowley stuff, but some older materials as well. On several occasions we made amulets, etc. and went to the graveyard to try to contact ghosts and various other things, from about 5th grade through about 10th.

I consider these occult (well, mostly 'occult') experiences to be a valuable part of my growing up. They are, however, the sort of thing that a lot of adults would not have wanted me to be doing then. But I enjoyed them and derived some value from them.

Similarly with the shared violent and sexual fantasizing that RPGs helped me and my friends undertake. I think that this harmed me in some ways, but I think it helped in others. I know though that it's not something a lot of adults would have approved of.

So I was making a kind of analogy, between two things that a lot of people consider bad but which I consider to have been partly or mostly beneficial in my own case. I see how that might not have been clear in the abstract though.

On the other hand - and this, at long last, IS an important point for what Judd is doing - all the occult, violent, and sexual stuff I got into through RPGs through my youthful peer group would have felt wrong, invasive, and creepy if an adult had been anywhere near it. That stuff was 'for us'. If an adult had been involved with my youthful RPGing, I would have wanted him or her to take a role much more like the one Judd appears to be taking. As he himself I believe said, he can leave the violent slaughterfests for them to get to on their own, in the all-night caffeine-jolted junior high and high school sessions. (If they want that, of course; it goes both ways; not everyone's like me either.)

Adults told me not to do this stuff at the time, and some of my friends got their D&D manuals burned, and all that. I said fuck 'em, I'm going to burn my own damn fingers on my own damn stove and I don't want anyone's help with the thing. Now, I had an abusive home situation, and I recognize that this attitude is not always healthy - even if it sometimes is - and I keep my therapist in good money helping me try to develop a more nuanced and reasonable attitude towards authority, my own as well as others'. But if I tend to err on the side of letting the demons out in discussions concerning children, well, it's because there are times and places where they need to get out, and we've got a society full of adults who mostly pretend the demons aren't there rather than trying to do the really good thing, which I take it Judd is doing, and trying to help people understand them better, which I consider an important part of the first Delphic injunction.

[ErrathofKosh]

I have a personal experience that may be germaine to this discussion...

I was raised in a fairly conservative christian environment, the values of which I still hold.  My family did not have a TV, nor was I allowed to watch any movie with a rating of more than G (and some of those I wasn't allowed to watch).  I had a experience similar to that of C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien; I created my own world to have adventures in.  No elves, no dwarves, no Pokemen or similar...  I drew from my own imagination.  HOWEVER, there was violence in that world (else I wouldn't have enjoyed it much), and it involved medieval weapons.  (I was allowed to read "educational" books about knights, castles, etc. which I did with gusto.  I was such a nerd...)

HOWEVER (again), the violence that I imagined (and acted out with my brother) was limited by my imagination.  I didn't think about chopping off peoples limbs and watching their blood stream out.  I simply stabbed them and went on.  (Perhaps this was influenced by the fact that the only PG movies I was allowed to watch were Star Wars.)

The lessons that I see from these experiences is this:
    There is a Veil that must be drawn in front of children to protect them from being desensitized to GRAPHIC violence, not to the fact that violence exists.  I let my six year old watch Star Wars; if I let him watch Kill Bill, most of you would agree that I was being derelict in my duties as a parent.  Yet, Luke and Anakin have both lost limbs in violent fashion in Star Wars, not unlike some of the characters in Kill Bill.  The difference is evident even as to it's effects on adults.  My wife watches Star Wars and loves it, watches Braveheart and tolerates it, watches Kill Bill and has to go puke....
   Boys don't need encouragement to roleplay violence, they need encouragement to learn other social behaviors.  

I like Nighttime Animals Save the World and Good Knights by Vincent Baker for my boys.  They aren't overtly nonviolent, but I think the Veil is in the right place....

Cheers
Jonathan

[Sean]

See, now the cat's out of the bag. Everyone's talking about their own experiences.

When I was nine or ten my folks took me to see Excalibur in the theater. Man, was that a hoot. Humping in plate mail, innards hanging on lances - I loved it.

I've been in a faithful, committed relationship with the same woman for more than a decade. Several years of her childhood were spent with two mommies in a lesbian women's commune after her parents' divorce. Some of the best memories she has of her childhood are from that time; no apparent scarring there either.

We hold down our jobs, pay our mortgage and our taxes, all that stuff.

I don't know what's right or wrong for kids in general, but I do know that 95% of what we're taught about it is just false. I have two counterexamples right here in my own house to prove it.

It's interesting that we couldn't keep this discussion on Judd's issue. It's clear why: we all have such strong feelings about children and what's good or bad for them.

Edit: I just remembered, this is the Forge, and I'm setting a bad example by going along with the flow here. I won't delete the post now after posting it though. Everyone, please try to stay on topic.

[greyorm]

Raven, I really think we should have started a new thread for this stuff or taken it offline, but I guess we're reaching conclusion now anyway. Next time I guess I'll take the initiative in switching out.

I don't know, personally, I think it is germane to the issue of "which games and what kind of play?"

this is one of those issues that's a little like (mild) corporal punishment. It depends on how sensitive your kid is...Even if a general policy that says 'don't do it' is better, that doesn't mean there aren't individual cases that form an exception.

Agreed, 100%. I could quote experiences in differentiation between my own kids to back that, but there's little need.

First of all, I'm aware of your faith, and I didn't think that graveyard spiritualism was part of the kind of solitary Wicca you practice.  (Apologies if I'm remembering wrong and it's some other kind of neopaganism though.) So it's hard to see how I'd think this was a crack at you, and in any case I didn't.

Hrm, ok. Seriously mixed signals between the both of us! Let me explain where I was coming from with my statement: First, no, I'm not into graveyard occultism or necromancy or anything. The reason I took it as a shot towards "anti-violence" groups (and thus also myself) is because the "gaming leads to the occult!" cry is the absurdist position of the usual anti-gaming people.

So, I saw the statement as a "...because <snicker> if they're going to <snicker> go summon demons from the Monster Manual <chortle> let them do it on their own time, just like <snicker> they would beat each other up on their own time..." IE: comparing the link between "fantasy violence and real violence" to the false link between "fantasy occultism and real occultism". Make sense?

I figured that if it was a shot at me, too, it would be because you figured I was one of those religious preacher types who was mortified by the "evil occult". Bad assumption on my part.

So I was making a kind of analogy, between two things that a lot of people consider bad but which I consider to have been partly or mostly beneficial in my own case. I see how that might not have been clear in the abstract though.

Cool. The statement makes much more sense, now.

As to the rest, that I've snipped for space, it is good to know where you're coming from, and I agree (at least in principle) in many cases with what you've stated.

[Walt Freitag]

I don't believe that Socratically introducing the kids to some resolution methods or other role playing system concepts will suddenly shatter their fragile innate creativity. (As far as ruining their worth as natural study specimens, well, that depends on whose benefit we're concerned with here. Think of how much we could learn by, say, never teaching them math and observing what they figure out on their own!)

Nor do I believe that dropping 3eAD&D on them and whacking their hands with a ruler each time they break any of its rules would promote their having a better time with their play.

I don't believe that guiding young players through death-camp-management scenarios or scenes of occult ritual human sacrifice would be acceptable.

Nor do I believe that playing out scenes of knights killing dragons or rebels and stormtroopers blasting each other in spaceship corridors will make it one iota more likely that any of the kids will become a serial killer someday, or that the occurrence of such events in play requires punitive-in-disguise "let's all talk about how wrong it was that you enjoyed this" follow-up discussions.

Maybe I'm out of touch, or maybe I'm a knee-jerk moderate, but I have little sympathy for any of the extreme positions taken so far in this thread. Fortunately Paka appears more than capable of navigating them and finding the sensible compromises.

- Walt

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

In fact - hey Judd! Moderate this thread, please. If you want the discussion of How I Feel About [x] to continue, that's cool, but if not, then kill it. Whichever, just say so.

Thanks,
Ron

[Judd]

Hello,

In fact - hey Judd! Moderate this thread, please. If you want the discussion of How I Feel About [x] to continue, that's cool, but if not, then kill it. Whichever, just say so.

Thanks,
Ron

I'd like the childhood memories to end.  They aren't helping.  For every childhood memory that X has, Y will have one that contradicts it.

I'd like your lesson plan, what you would do or have done in regards to gaming with kids from Kindergarten to Fifth Grade.  How did you set it up?  How did you present it?  How did you alter play?

What did you learn about your own gaming from this experience?  What would you do differently if you could go back?

What did the young folk like and what bored them?

What surprised you about the gaming experience?

No more about your own childhood gaming, I want thoughts from adults who have gamed with kids.  These kids can be your own children or neices and nephews or kids at a game club.

Games that you have witnessed or taken part in but haven't run are perfectly fine too.

Thanks for all of the interest in this thread.

It is really appreciated.

[ffilz]

In my previous campaign I had a 5th grade boy and I think a 5th grade girl (or perhaps she was a year younger or older, I don't think I ever got her actual age). This was a regular adult D&D campaign and they were children of adult players. I really didn't change anything, other than perhaps make an effort to avoid sexual jokes and stuff (not that I do much of that anyway), though the father of the girl did one time do some joking. I've never been very much into graphic descriptions of mayhem. The campaign tended to be a pretty straight forward monster bash and treasure grab.

Some things I observed:

The boy quickly got tired of characters and had a tendency to seek action and get them killed. After his first character died (the first death in the campaign, and mostly the other players fault), he asked for some dice and started rolling up a new character. He also sometimes burried his nose in a book when it wasn't his turn.

The girl never really got into the game that much, on the other hand, she didn't seem completely bored. I suspect she played to spend time with her dad.

One thing I really felt was that it would have been better to run a separate campaign for the kids. I think the gir especially would have benefitted from not having so many adults. One adult player might be good to provide some mentoring though.

Frank

[Callan S.]

I've tried cooking up a game and running it with my 4yo son. Basic roll dice to remove golbins from the board stuff. In fact, when I cooked it up I thought I had to make a little target for my son to roll dice at, to make it a practical exercise.

Here's the fun bit. Twice now, by himself, he's drawn a map with rooms, doors, treasure and monsters. He even cut out cardboard, folded it and drew really crude figures on either side. Made one for me and one for him

So we go through and he insists I must roll a dice (D6) every so often to move (err, I just moved a bit and checked to see if it was okay by his standard) and when we meet a monster. I'm not sure what beat a monster, but high was always good. We'd roll, and I'd keep asking if that was enough. Eventually he'd say it was. He didn't use any little target thing in his game...just rolled and was excited to do so.

So we'd sort of rock through. Basically I'd try to find out what he meant in game and was aiming for. He was definately looking for my hearty feedback, but by simply reacting to what I liked of his effort in a positive manor, I could influence him. I didn't have to impose my idea of story or role...I could just choose what I liked and respond positively, and that would be reinforced. Notice here I'm waiting for what I like and reinforcing it, not introducing what I like and reinforcing that into him.

That's why I play with adults as well. Because I want to be shown some of their contribution (and vise versa), and show my appreciation for certain elements. The contributing and levels of appreciation work together to produce play/something that couldn't have been made by any one individual involved. But, if I wanted to I could have easily pressed my ideas of role and story on the thing, because like any child he's impressionable. Why bother to do that, since I could just imagine exctly what I like by myself? Unless what I enjoy is simply implanting my own beliefs in others.

I think if your going to play with kids, you'd better be clear on whether you want to get something from the small amount of culture they have developed, or you want to set that culture to the same as your own. Personally, there are many reasons to shape their culture to be like your own. But I don't think gaming is the medium for that at all.


Thanks for the moderation, Judd. I was about to bow out, before your questions moved things on from what was being contributed.

[Judd]

I think if your going to play with kids, you'd better be clear on whether you want to get something from the small amount of culture they have developed, or you want to set that culture to the same as your own. Personally, there are many reasons to shape their culture to be like your own. But I don't think gaming is the medium for that at all.


Thanks for the moderation, Judd. I was about to bow out, before your questions moved things on from what was being contributed.

Thank you for staying with the thread and contributing.

Could you elaborate on your paragraph above?  I'm not sure that I'm following you.

Are you saying that I should play D&D their way and leave them alone?  Are you saying ....I just don't understand what you are saying and I want to.

Thanks.

[ErrathofKosh]

So we'd sort of rock through. Basically I'd try to find out what he meant in game and was aiming for. He was definately looking for my hearty feedback, but by simply reacting to what I liked of his effort in a positive manor, I could influence him. I didn't have to impose my idea of story or role...I could just choose what I liked and respond positively, and that would be reinforced. Notice here I'm waiting for what I like and reinforcing it, not introducing what I like and reinforcing that into him.

I think if your going to play with kids, you'd better be clear on whether you want to get something from the small amount of culture they have developed, or you want to set that culture to the same as your own. Personally, there are many reasons to shape their culture to be like your own. But I don't think gaming is the medium for that at all.

I do a little bit both with my son; he likes to contribute and have his contributions validated positively, but he also enjoys some of the things that I have to offer.  He enjoys the addition input and often riffs off of it.  Personally, I think the only aspect of his "culture" I am influencing is his "expectations abouts and habits during roleplaying."  He has already been taught my "cultural beliefs" about violence and evil, for example.  (I'm not dragging this up for more discussion, it is simply an example.)  

What he most enjoys about our sessions is the time spent with his dad, building up an imaginary world and having adventures.  But, he enjoys me reading Redwall to him just as much...

When I have more time, I'll post one of our sessions of the Good Knights on Actual Play...

Cheers
Jonathan

[Callan S.]

I think if your going to play with kids, you'd better be clear on whether you want to get something from the small amount of culture they have developed, or you want to set that culture to the same as your own. Personally, there are many reasons to shape their culture to be like your own. But I don't think gaming is the medium for that at all.


Thanks for the moderation, Judd. I was about to bow out, before your questions moved things on from what was being contributed.

Thank you for staying with the thread and contributing.

Could you elaborate on your paragraph above?  I'm not sure that I'm following you.

Are you saying that I should play D&D their way and leave them alone?  Are you saying ....I just don't understand what you are saying and I want to.

Thanks.

Excuse me if I start to sound like a hippy at any point here:
If I play with someone else, its because I want their contribution to combine with mine. They give something, I give something and we sort of intermingle the two to make something that either of us couldn't have made on our own. The resulting thing might be more a creation of one of us than the other, but both of us should be there.

Further, I play with someone else because they wont just introduce stuff I'm familiar with/stuff I know or expect. If I just wanted what I know and think about, I wouldn't play with anyone else.

With a kid, it's very easy to trample all over both of these. Their just so ready to absorb stuff from a respected adult. Now, when you introduce what you think role or story is to another adult, you often find they have their own opinion and will push back with their own. Often the mutual pushing produces the above two effects nicely (or escalates to arguments, with bad social contract).

What you need to look for is that, in play, if everything is exactly as you would imagine it if you were by yourself...then your not playing with them. I guess it's like wrestling with children...you don't use your full strength because that eliminates their being able to wrestle with you. Similarly, when it comes to what your contribution in game, your going to have to hold back on how much you push your ideas, so they can push back with their own/engage the mental wrestling. If you use your full strength or use the entire weight of big ideas like playing a role or running a story, you'll overwhelm them and they will simply accept it and learn it. That's not gaming with them, but teaching them. If you want to teach them these things, that's cool, but it's not gaming. So you need to decide what your going to do.


ErrathofKosh: I'd like to see that Good Knights actual play. :)