[GroupDesign] - Advanced Archivism

[Andrew Morris]

Kirk, glad to see new folks jumping in to the discussion -- the more brains, the better. So, welcome.

Before we go too far discussing the "butterfly effect" though, I just want to step back a bit and explain that theory. I haven't seen the movie, but I am told they don't really address the theory, instead opting for standard Hollywood fare. The butterfly effect is the theory that any system has significant sensitivity to initial conditions. This is illustrated by the idea that a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world causes micro-changes in airflow, which in turn cause minor changes, which go on to cause major changes, etc., resulting in a thunderstorm on the other side of the globe (eventually).

Applied to time travel, the butterfly effect is a supporting argument for the chaotic timestream model. There is a range even within this model, of course, but at the extreme would be something along the lines of going far back in time, doing nothing other than looking around, and heading back to your own time only to discover that intelligent mice with opposable thumbs now rule the planet, with humans as their slaves.

I've been pushing for the elastic timestream model, for three reasons.
1. It's cooler.
2. It allows for plenty of belief systems, be they religion or other form of spirituality.
3. It's a whole lot easier to GM.

The elastic timestream model purports that the major course of history is the result of billions of tiny interactions, leading up to the actual event. To change any event, you'd have to track down every detail that leads to it, and change them all, making gross changes in the timestream very difficult.

[Tobias]

I'm with Andrew on this one. I just wasn't aware that what he calls the 'elastic timestream' is what I call the 'statistically dominated psychohistory-like unfolding of events'.

At least Andrew's method of saying it is shorter. :)

BTW, this thread really belongs somewhere else. If you want, I'll spin it off? Elasticity vs. Butterfly?

[Sydney Freedberg]

Hey guys. I'm not a part of the project...

You are now!

As for your "Butterfly Effect" thoughts -- cool, but I'm going to post on that vs. elasticity over on Mix Your Own Metaplot because that's where time travel & history manipulation belong.

[Andrew Morris]

BTW, this thread really belongs somewhere else. If you want, I'll spin it off? Elasticity vs. Butterfly?

Yeah, it might be good to do a "Time Travel Party II" thread and hammer down exactly how time travel works in our game. Anyone else agree? Disagree?

[Sydney Freedberg]

BTW, this thread really belongs somewhere else. If you want, I'll spin it off? Elasticity vs. Butterfly?

Yeah, it might be good to do a "Time Travel Party II" thread and hammer down exactly how time travel works in our game. Anyone else agree? Disagree?

I think the two big issues we need to discuss are (1) Time Travel/History Manipulation and (2) Free Will vs. Whatever The Alternative Thing is. Arguably the technicalities of Time Travel are the main concern of the Mix Your Own Metaplot thread and Free Will on the individual level should be the main concern of this here Advanced Archivism thread, but giving that we're rapidly getting to 4 pages on each thread and getting jumbled, it might indeed help to rephrase the question in two new threads. (Links to which Tobias then posts in the Index Thread.)

But it's up to the Foot. O, Tobias, I invoke thee! Blood and posts for my Foot Tobias!

[Sydney Freedberg]

BTW, this thread really belongs somewhere else. If you want, I'll spin it off? Elasticity vs. Butterfly?

Yeah, it might be good to do a "Time Travel Party II" thread and hammer down exactly how time travel works in our game. Anyone else agree? Disagree?

I think the two big issues we need to discuss are (1) Time Travel/History Manipulation and (2) Free Will vs. Whatever The Alternative But Equally Good Thing is. Arguably the technicalities of Time Travel are the main concern of the Mix Your Own Metaplot thread and Free Will on the individual level should be the main concern of this here Advanced Archivism thread, but given that we're rapidly getting to 4 pages on each thread and getting jumbled, it might indeed help to rephrase the question in two new threads (links to which Tobias then posts in the Index Thread.) {EDIT: And that would have the advantage of treating both the individual & macro-level aspects of Free Will in the same thread, when the macro is currently in Metaplot and the individual is in Archivism}.

But it's up to the Foot. O, Tobias, I invoke thee! Blood and posts for my Foot Tobias!

[Kirk Mitchell]

Before we go too far discussing the "butterfly effect" though, I just want to step back a bit and explain that theory. I haven't seen the movie, but I am told they don't really address the theory, instead opting for standard Hollywood fare. The butterfly effect is the theory that any system has significant sensitivity to initial conditions. This is illustrated by the idea that a butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the world causes micro-changes in airflow, which in turn cause minor changes, which go on to cause major changes, etc., resulting in a thunderstorm on the other side of the globe (eventually).

Without sounding like a know-it-all, I was aware of what the butterfly effect is, as well as a decent knowledge of chaos theory (nothing too big, but enough to have an idea of what I'm talking about). And yes, the movie does take a "hollywood approach" as in it simplifies the effect to make it understandable to the audience and have a coherent narrative, however, it is more than just standard hollywood fare and is one of the most thought provoking and inventive thrillers I've seen in a long time. But I digress.

Hey guys. I'm not a part of the project...

You are now!

Thanks! Nice to join. My HSC is starting so I won't be able to contribute all the time though. I'll go and have a read through all of the threads. It's a bit convoluted so bear with me.

Kirk

[mholmes52]

I have been a lurker for a long time, on the Forge in general, and specifically on the Group Design threads.

The way I see how Archivists function, they have to worry about a few things:
1) The amount of power they use with their Hosts. The more power they use, the more Burn their Host takes, and the quicker the Host will die.

That is Power Vs Life.

2) The amount of freedom they give the Host to do what the Host feels is the right thing. If they have complete control of the Host, then there is a greater chance of the Archivist's goal being achieved, but the more questionable the actions.

That is Freedom Vs Control, or Safety.
Since the more control, the less likely the chance of something getting out of the control of the Archivists.

It seems to be a balancing act, trying to use just the minimal amount of control and power, so that the Host doesnt collapse, but not just letting the Host do whatever he or she wants, since then the Archivist would fade away.

I was also thinking about the idea of having Fade and Burn for both Host and Archivist. The idea isnt exactly new, but I havent seen it actually stated in terms of Fade and Burn. The final effects are fairly easy, and those are taken from the original concepts.

Archivist Fade: The Archivist is suppressed by the Host.
Host Fade: This is where the 'Empty Shell' effect of burn would be.

Archivist Burn: The Archivist losses access to Host possession, and/or other powers.
Host Burn: The Host is dead.

Having Hosts have the ability to Fade allows the seperation between an Empty Shell and a dead Host. Although, I don't know how Host Fade would be tracked.

Causes for Fade and Burn are also fairly simple:
Archivist Fade: The Host's emotions and humanity overwhelm the Host.
Host Fade: The Archivist takes full control of the Host, suppressing it.

Host Burn: Hosts take burn when Archivists use their powers.
Archivist Burn: This is the one that is giving me difficulty. The idea of a changing timeline affecting the abilities of the Archivist could be what gives the Archivist Burn, but I was wondering if there was something that an Archivist could do while possessing a Host that would hurt the powers of the Archivist.

There are also most likely other effects that an Archivist would have to worry about, or at least consider, when possessing a Host, but the four I mentioned above were the ones that other people seemed to think were important. They are also the ones that most concern what happens between Archivist and Host.
Most of the other ones are more concerned with the interaction between the Archivists and the timeline, at least the ones I can think of.

[Sydney Freedberg]

{EXTENSIVELY EDITED because the baby started crying and I had to go away & come back}

I have been a lurker for a long time, on the Forge in general, and specifically on the Group Design threads.

Hey, welcome to the asylum -- err, the GroupDesign project.

I think you're onto something (which we've been all struggling with) in splitting the simple Fade vs. Burn dynamic into 2 axes -- the ones you've called Power vs. Life and Freedom vs. Control. I'm not sure these are quite the right terms, yet, but I definitely like the fact that you've rephrased them from negatives (both Fade and Burn being bad things) to positives: Power, Life, Freedom, and Control are all good in themselves, it's just you can have too much of one good thing at the expense of another. Hence Maintaining a Balance -- one of our key themes from the original brainstorm -- becomes paramount.

And while I'd been thinking about both Archivists and Hosts being able to suffer Burn...

Having Hosts have the ability to Fade allows the seperation between an Empty Shell and a dead Host.....Host Fade: The Archivist takes full control of the Host, suppressing it. Host Burn: Hosts take burn when Archivists use their powers...

Host Fade. Hadn't thought of it, but that may just be the missing piece. But let's turn it around, from negatives to positives, so we're worried once again bout "too much of a good thing." Thus, instead of Fade vs. Burn, let's think in terms of "Freedom vs. Control" (good terms, there; I'll go with them) and "Humanity vs. Transcendence" (to take concepts already in the Nailing Mechanics draft rules).

Perhaps "Host Fade" becomes "Host Transcendence getting too high at the expense of Host Humanity." The Archivist's use of its powers through the Host starts rubbing off on him/her. The good news is the Host may start gaining Transcendent Knowledge (aka Logoi) him or herself, either temporarily or permanently. The bad news is (a) the Host will start figuring out what's going on, which leads ultimately to insanity or the revelation of the Archivist's presence (b) too much of this sort of thing starts wearing down your Humanity (aka human traits aka passions), so the Host becomes one of T.S. Elliot's "Hollow Men," emotionally empty and detached.

As opposed to the Host just falling over dead, which is represented in this scheme by ... uh.... I don't know.

I'm stumbling around with these concepts and really haven't got them yet, but I think we're headed somewhere useful, somewhere the simple vehicle of "Fade vs. Burn" couldn't take us.

[Doug Ruff]

Welcome mholmes52, it's good to have you on board. I like what you're saying already.

I'm going to try a mechanic to express some of the issues that have come up.

Control: Each Host has a maximum trait level (say 10.) This could be a dice pool, a statistic, whatever the game uses.

The Archivist and Host each have a Control rating that determines how much each of themare "in charge". The total control rating is equal to the Maximum trait level. An unpossessed Host has a Control of 10; a completely dominated ("Faded") Host has a Control of 0.

For example: if the Archivist currently has a Control of 4, they cannot use an Archivist trait or Logos at rating higher than 4. The Host has a Control of 6, so they can use their own trait up to a maximum rating of 6 (any points over are temporarily lost.)

An Archivist can cede Control at any time (unless they have become "addicted" to possessing the host in some way.) Gaining more Control requires another conflict.

If a Host ever (voluntarily or involuntarily) exerts a trait which exceeds their Control level, this also automatically initiates a conflict.

For example: Jim the Auto Mechanic is possessed by an Archivist, and only has a Control of 3. The Archivist needs him to use his "Repair Machinery" Trait, which has a value of 5. This exceeds Jim's control, so a conflict ensues. Jim wins the conflict, and his Control rises to 4. Jim will still not be able to use his own ability.

Extreme stress also triggers a conflict.

If the Host ever regains a Control of 10 as the result of a conflict, the Archivist is trapped (Fade). This does not happen if the Archivist voluntarily cedes control - if this happens the Archivist simple leaves the Host.

The more Powerful Archivist logoi require very high Control levels - say, 8 or above. Attempting to use these may accidentally (or deliberately) raise the Archivist's Control to 10 following the conflict. If this happens, the Host loses volition (Fade) and becomes dependent upon the Archivist.

[Andrew Morris]

Without sounding like a know-it-all, I was aware of what the butterfly effect is, as well as a decent knowledge of chaos theory

Hey no problem. I wasn't implying you didn't know about it, I was just fleshing out the theory for everyone.

[The movie] is more than just standard hollywood fare and is one of the most thought provoking and inventive thrillers I've seen in a long time.

Hmm....guess I'll have to watch it sometime, then.

Power Vs Life [...] Freedom Vs Control

Hey, I like this. It's simple, elegant, and ties right into the core concepts of the Archivist concept.

[Michael Brazier]

As opposed to the Host just falling over dead, which is represented in this scheme by ... uh.... I don't know.

Do you really want that to be possible?  It'd be a better fit, I think, for the effects of "Host Burn" to be destroying the Host's higher faculties.  The danger of compelling a Host is that the Host becomes less intelligent, perceptive, or creative -- in the extreme, ceasing to think altogether.  Unless you allow Archivists to possess animals, snuffing out a Host's mind should leave an Archivist with no foothold in that Host.

[Andrew Morris]

I was also thinking about the idea of having Fade and Burn for both Host and Archivist. The idea isnt exactly new, but I havent seen it actually stated in terms of Fade and Burn. The final effects are fairly easy, and those are taken from the original concepts.

Archivist Fade: The Archivist is suppressed by the Host.
Host Fade: This is where the 'Empty Shell' effect of burn would be.

Archivist Burn: The Archivist losses access to Host possession, and/or other powers.
Host Burn: The Host is dead.

Perhaps this is even a sliding scale, rather than a simple effect. For example, to take host Burn, we could go back to some of the earlier ideas people had about the effects of possession -- vomiting, hair falling out, general malaise, etc. -- and put them on a chart. The higher the host's Burn, the greater the physical effects, until Burn is maxed out, resulting in the host's death. So, rather than accumulating Burn until the point where they fall over dead, the host begins to suffer even early on.

Perhaps "Host Fade" becomes "Host Transcendence getting too high at the expense of Host Humanity." The Archivist's use of its powers through the Host starts rubbing off on him/her. The good news is the Host may start gaining Transcendent Knowledge (aka Logoi) him or herself, either temporarily or permanently. The bad news is (a) the Host will start figuring out what's going on, which leads ultimately to insanity or the revelation of the Archivist's presence (b) too much of this sort of thing starts wearing down your Humanity (aka human traits aka passions), so the Host becomes one of T.S. Elliot's "Hollow Men," emotionally empty and detached.

When thinking about what would happen if hosts become aware of the Archivist, I see a lot of fun stuff happening, not just them becoming detached. First, who's gonna believe them? I don't care if my best friend came to me telling me about some race of incorporeal creatures that were controlling her body to achieve their own ends; I wouldn't believe it, and I can't imagine 99.9% of the population would, either. Second, perhaps, along with awareness of the Archivists, comes the ability to resist them. When host Fade is maxed out, they aren't dead inside, they are essentially an Archivist, albeit one trapped in a body of flesh. So (somewhat counterintuitively) host Fade knocks the Archivist out of the body -- there's no longer enough there that's human for the Archivist to hide in.

[Doug Ruff]

As opposed to the Host just falling over dead, which is represented in this scheme by ... uh.... I don't know.

Do you really want that to be possible?  It'd be a better fit, I think, for the effects of "Host Burn" to be destroying the Host's higher faculties.

I think that we should allow the possibility of both these outcomes. Shit happens, y'know.

The current problem with this is that we have been limiting ourselves to two Dilemmas: Fade and Burn (or Control and Danger.) How about a third one? Here's one way of doing it:

Fade becomes part of the "Control" Conflict, so yo have "Host Fade" vs. "Archivist Fade"

Burn is about damage: Archivist Damage through the destruction of past events, and Host damage from having his body shot, battered or just plain nuked by the Archivists own energies. So this is a Sacrifice Conflict - Archivist Safety vs. Host Safety (and possibly both of these vs. Greater Good.)

This leaves the Sanity Conflict - The Archivist is battling against the intrusion of unwelcome minds in Archivist Space, and the addiction of possession in Host-Space.

The Host is battling against the realisation that there are "more things in heaven and earth ... than are dreamt of in your philosophy" and against the authorities who would have him locked up for is "insanity".

On second thoughts, I'd rename the Sanity Conflict as the Truth Conflict - this leaves us with three themes - Control (or Power), Sacrifice and Truth. And, IMHO, they all sound like powerful themes for a good Story.

[Andrew Morris]

Okay, Doug, let's break out the effects of those three axes and see if I'm on the same page as you.

Power Axis
Host's power is higher -> Archivist begins to Fade, taking on host traits
Archivist's power is higher -> Host begins to Fade, taking on Archivist traits
Power is balanced -> Both personalities remain distinct

Sacrifice Axis
Host's sacrifice is higher -> Archivist loses ability to influence host's actions fully and can become trapped in host, but host suffers no Burn
Archivist's sacrifice is higher -> Host begins suffering severe physical damage (Burn), but Archivist has total control of host actions
Sacrifice is balanced -> Archivist retains ability to control host, host takes only moderate amounts of physical damage (Burn)

Truth Axis
Host's truth is higher -> Archivist has limited access to Logoi, but host is completely unaware of anything out of the ordinary
Archivist's truth is higher -> Host begins to understand Logoi and Archivists, but Archivist can use Logoi more freely and has access to the most powerful Logoi
Truth is balanced -> Archivist can use Logoi, host knows something strange is happening, but doesn't have enough information to figure out the truth

This is all very rough, even though the Sacrifice Axis and Truth Axis seem pretty workable. The Power Axis needs some major work. I might also have confused some of the issues, so I'd like to get some feedback on the effects of the three axes proposed by Doug.

It was suggested earlier that there be some conflict that determines where the balance lies in the axes proposed, but I'd like to see a mechanic that is based entirely on player choice. The game is about making hard choices, after all.