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As you know I'm creating my own RPG for self publishing.  I have about three distinct campaigns/stories in my head at the moment that can be fleshed out into complete settings.  The mechanic that I've created is very flexible and generic enough to allow easy adaptation to multiple genres.  As was done with D20 when it rolled out, I'm considering choosing one of my settings as the flagship setting.  This will however increase the size and prize of my initial offering.  The basic rule set will be large enough to encompass the malleability desired including rules for creating spells/powers/skills/monsters and the campaign setting will include specific instances of spells/powers/skills/monsters created with those rules.

From a gamer's perspective:  Would you rather have the choice of buying just the rules if you wanted and getting the settings separately but paying slightly more per book?  Or would you rather get a better value by getting rules and setting together though you might not even use the setting?

From a design perspective:  Do you see inherent advantages to making your game modular?  Do you think that bigger books are an easier sell?  Or do you think that the modern gamer is more budget conscious?  I'm talking about the majority here.


Perhaps a bit of insight into my creation process will help you get a feel for where I'm going.  I think a lot of game designers take one of two approaches to creation.  

1.  I have this excellent fully fleshed out setting, now I just need a mechanic.  If an existing mechanic has all that I need to accurately capture the feel of my game I'll use it; otherwise I'll create a new one.  

2. I have this great mechanic that I think is better because it's mathematically sound/fair/fun/easy/etc. now I just need a setting.

I went with #2.

How many pages does your mechanic take up?

I've also been working on a system to put up on our website. I'm going for a complicated beer and preztles, but easy RPG rules set, so my base rules take up about no more than 10 pages. Since it's not that big, I was thinking about making the base rules a free download so people could read it and pass it around, even play their own games (which is still good b/c it generates interest in the system). I have about three settings in mind right now and each one uses this sytem, but each one either expands or modifies the system a little with more crunchy bits you can add to the base system. I haven't fleshed out how big these settings will be, but I've decided to charge for them, even if they end up being as low as six bucks. Alternatively, if my group got a bug up their ass and wanted to put this to actual print, then I've decided that I would include the rules with the settings and charge a slightly higher price (and place a bare bones, just-what-you-need-to-know PDF online for free download).

Does this sound like something you were planning to do, or is my anecdote completely off base?

Actually reading your post I would say you're describing my system pretty much exactly.  The rules I've got right now are unfinished but at about 12 pages.  Adding spell and skill description is the largest part.  The rest is all setting specific.

Personally, I have tended to choose option #1: the setting comes from me, and then I scope around for a mechanics system that fits well for what I want.  I tend not to find most fantasy or scifi settings very interesting, and so I in effect end up ripping out the mechanics and putting them to use elsewhere.  So I guess I would tend to buy the mechanics alone and never bother with the setting.

I'm just the opposite of Chris- I like settings, not mechanics. There are several gameworlds that I would like better if they had no mechanics at all. Jorune and the WoD come to mind.

So, yeah, split it up and sell to both types of gamer...

JC, couple of pieces of advice.

1) Polls like this thread aren't going to help you very much.  You will get very enthusiastic support and very vehement opposition for every option you present.  In the end you have to choose what gets YOU fired up.  If the choices don't get you fired up...then they're wrong.  That's about the only absolute truth I can give you about game design.

2) I think you're setting up a false dichotomy.  There is no simple question of setting vs. mechanics.  Its alot more complicated than that.  I'll give you an example.

If you tell me you have a set of mechanics that you can plug and play a variety of settings into, and you want to know whether I'd find buying the mechanics together with a setting included or completely seperate more appealing, I'm going to tell you niether.

I'm going tell you niether because in my mind, mechanics and setting SHOULD be inseperable.  The ideal game mechanics for me are the ones that mechanically reinforce the setting.  

Show me a setting...show me mechanics so closely tied to that setting that they couldn't possibly be used for anything else but that setting...and I'll get excited.

Show me mechanics that can be plugged into any setting with little effort and all you'll get from me is a big yawn.


My point being is that there aren't just two options to the problem and you'll never get anything approaching a consensus about which is the best route to go.  So again...just do what makes you excited and that excitement will rub off on others.

Heya,

This thread might help you out too: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=5181&highlight=ember

Peace,

-Troy

Vladamir

I see your point, and that makes sense.  I did really want other peoples' opinion because frankly what I like doesn't matter to me, what the customer wants does.  If I make a product that will appeal to the smallest audience then I'm shooting myself in the foot.  I thought perhaps other designers had some insight on this issue from their own experience.  You're right again about settings meshed with mechanics but I think that at its core a mechanic can be simple enough to transcend into different settings.  Maybe it's me but it's the true math of my core mechanic that gets me most excited.  I play a lot of poker so maybe it's just my love of statistics.   I hate to beat around the bush about my game because it's unfinished.  I don't want to release anything about it too early because nothing is copyrighted yet.

Quote from: jc_maddenI see your point, and that makes sense.  I did really want other peoples' opinion because frankly what I like doesn't matter to me, what the customer wants does.  If I make a product that will appeal to the smallest audience then I'm shooting myself in the foot.

In that case, you're already shooting yourself in the foot by writing an RPG. Ok, I'm being slightly tongue-in-cheek there, but keep in mind we are talking a niche market that produces what amounts to gas money for its creatives. If you aren't doing this for love...if you're doing this banking on making a profit (or rather, a living)...well, bluntly, you'd be idiot to do that.

However, much more pertinent to this discussion than knowledge or lack thereof is the fact of the matter: that if you don't love your material, it doesn't matter how much the imagined audience will (supposedly) love it. For creatives, the amount you love your work (or don't) comes through to the audience, and that ends up selling (or killing) your work more than trying to appeal to a mostly imaginary market.

QuoteI don't want to release anything about it too early because nothing is copyrighted yet.

The minute you wrote it down, it was copyrighted. You don't have to do anything to copyright something -- that particular protection is automatic under the law.

JC, it sounds like you might want to go through the backlog of posts here on copyright, publishing, and business before you start thinking about "making an RPG and making money with it." While I admire your enthusiasm to produce an RPG, your statements show very little awareness of even basic publishing issues (like copyright).

Now, I am not saying that to be insulting (we all have to start somewhere, and everyone here started right where you are), rather, I hope we can help get you up to speed, so please feel free to ask questions, and don't hesitate to be forthcoming.

We've all got our own ideas we're pursuing, so the chances that anyone here (or really, anywhere) would want to steal yours is pretty slim (for the simple reason that anyone with the ability and drive to put out an RPG is not going to be the sort of person that steals someone else's ideas -- idea thieves, if there is such a thing, have little of that drive or they'd be publishing their own stuff).

QuoteI don't want to release anything about it too early because nothing is copyrighted yet.

-Yeah bro, I wouldn't worry about this.  People don't troll these boards looking to steal other people's ideas- they have ones of their owns.  I struggled in that myself when I (and my partners) wrote my first RPG.  Don't hold back.  This site is dedicated to helping people like you.  I know it has helped me greatly, and I am a better designer for it.  And just like greyorm said, the minute you wrote it down it's copyrighted for all intents and purposes.

Peace,

-Troy

greyorm

I think you mistook me.  I'm not completely ignorant just looking to protect my intellectual property.  Sure I understand you feel that it isn't necessary but you never can be too cautious.  Granted idea theft is a worse-case-scenario and it's operating under the assumption that what I write is actually worth something, but hey that's what I see you have to do.  Perhaps this shows my lack of knowlege but isn't that why I was asking questions in the first place?  If I knew it all I wouldn't be asking for advice.  In future I'll be more forthcoming with the details of the system I'm developing.

I thought long and hard about a response to you as I was slightly put off.  But I realize that in the end you're just trying to be helpful so I'll just say thanks.

Troy
Got it rock solid now thanks!  When I get something pretty to share I'll have a link for you guys.

Heya,

QuoteTroy
Got it rock solid now thanks! When I get something pretty to share I'll have a link for you guys.

-Sweet! Look forward to it :)

Peace,

-Troy

Quote from: jc_maddenI thought long and hard about a response to you as I was slightly put off.  But I realize that in the end you're just trying to be helpful so I'll just say thanks.

JC, my apologies, in hindsight I was pretty blunt. No harm intended though, and glad you didn't take it wrong.

I look forward to seeing what you're working on!

Here is a link to the system document I'm working on right now; it's in a raw form so not a lot of formatting or organization/art.  The more I think about what Vladimir said the more I agree that there are a lot of things I want to include in the rules that are directly related to the setting that I intend to publish.  So I think I will make rules/setting inseparable.

Well, GW may have been blunt, but he WAS right- on copyright, the instant a work is in a fixed form (even digital), it is copyrighted.

What you CANNOT copy are very basic, thematic, issues. Characters, Specific Scenarios, specific, fictional places not in public domain (ie anything not Camelot, Vallhalla, Hell/Hades etc), can be copyrighted (Which makes me think...just how does Marvel maintain their copyright on Thor, Loki, and the other Asgard assemblage?? just thinking out loud...).

Now, here's the stickyness. You have to prove your work was in fixed form before a rivial/conflicting form. Easiest way is to create a draft document and mail it to yourself, and place it in a secure place when you recieve it back.
The stamped mail date creates an unquestionable date by which the work was fixed, and if its not opened until the Hearing in question, the judge or jury or however far it goes will obviously see that the work contained had to have been created by the date on the envelope.

Researched small press and comic production years ago, this is a trick that was actually used by artists and authors that stands.