Lumpley Principle, Authority and CA

[Christoph Boeckle]

Sorry, must have been tired :)
Here we go:

So is CA System or is CA the drive that changes System?

Maybe I'm worrying too much about this issue.

[Bill Cook]

Hello. I'm not Ron, but here's an answer:)

To use your terms, CA is the drive that changes System.

You can really spot your CA when you change rulebooks (e.g. going from D&D to V:tR) or when you change groups. You may be reading in the new book and think, "What the hell would be the point of that?" or "Oh, my god! That's so what we've been missing!" With a new group, you may think "IC dialogue for everything? .. All the time?" or "Of course! Writing our declarations on index cards and then turning them over keeps people from weaseling out of their decisions." These little preferences combine to indicate an agenda for play.

[Ron Edwards]

Bill is right.

Christoph, it seems to me that "drive" as you're using it is a pretty good synonym for "agenda" as I am using it. So it might help just to consider them the same thing ...

... if we recognize, together, that the term means a demonstration of the drive, agenda, goal, or whatever we want to call it. It can't just sit in our heads; it has to be expressed through actions, words, and interactions.

Best,
Ron

[Christoph Boeckle]

Allright, I've reread the whole thread, tried to tie loose ends toghether and approached the big picture.

I think we do agree on what CA is (what I hadn't really understood was that you seem to recognize CA after a series of games, rather than getting people toghether and saying "Let's play a Nar game"), and we even agree that in some rare occasions it can act as a "golden standard" (thus becoming temporarily System, which is more readily necessary in the case of my approach of "Let's play a '...' game", to the contrary of a group for whom this is a natural and deeply anchored element (exagerating a bit here)).

I want to play roleplaying games following various CA, but then really stick to it for the game and not mix it up with other things (especially old habits). And for this, I need to get that clearly across and have us all agree to play in the CA's mood. Otherwise we keep on falling back to the old style. If after a game or two we see this isn't what we like, we can at least say we really tried, then move on to something new.

Now after having read Bill's thread (suggested a few posts ago), I see that you guys are very sceptic about this approach, and I assume you have excellent reasons to be sceptic about it. I think that at this stage, I've got to change my focus and read about other things than the very ethereal Big Model. I lack experience in too many domains to understand it well enough I guess.

So, any hints for reading more about the stuff like Bill was talking about?

And thanks for your precious time guys!

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Christoph,

I think it's easy: just check out the games themselves. The Model is not ethereal, but your experience of it is definitely ethereal. Let's get down to real games and real play.

See JAGS, Pocket Universe, and EABA. See Multiverser.

See My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, Nine Worlds, and (perhaps) Trollbabe, and Legends of Alyria.

See Fastlane, Capes, Dust Devils, Primetime Adventures, and Universalis.

See Burning Wheel, Orkworld, Conspiracy of Shadows, and The Riddle of Steel.

See The Great Ork Gods and Elfs.

None of the listings above were chosen in the sense of GNS alone, but rather as families of techniques - actual rules, actual assumptions about play, and clear suggestions and procedures.

Also, the listings are just a few off the top of my head. See dozens of others, of whatever vintage, whether 30 years old (Tunnels & Trolls) or currently in development (The Mountain Witch).

What you shouldn't do is get trapped in the huge swamp of games which are effectively Champions/Vampire clones with a hell of a lot of setting and color troweled over them. I am not claiming that these games are evil or unplayable; I do suggest that they represent minor refinements of a fairly limited approach, in terms of explicit techniques.

Best,
Ron

[Christoph Boeckle]

Thanks for the list!
I'll try to check them out over time, but there's already lots to do with french games (I've recently mastered Wuthering Hights for example).

Don't worry about the Champions clones: I don't think they exist in french. As for Vampire, I'm not too interested in it. ;)