The Forge Archives

There have been many issues and discussions on the topic of women and rpgs. There are some who feel that most games out there are sexist and are completely targeted towards males, they feel this is true because of the subject matter and the fact that most of the women in the books are hardly wearing anything. There have also been issues of stereotyping females. Men who play female characters are more likely to have the personality of either the cold hearted bitch, or the seductive slut.  

Anyways, what does everyone here feel about this? What are everyone's thoughts about women in gaming?

Hello,

Welcome to the Forge! We've discussed these issues in the past (someone will provide a list of links soon), but that's no reason not to continue.

However, in order for us to have a discussion, the topic needs to be more concrete. "Women in gaming" is not a topic - please provide some more focus, and some ideas to use as a starting point. It might be good to state some goals that seem desirable to you, and then people can participate insofar as they find these goals reasonable. You've mentioned sexism, so it is necessary to know how you define this term and what you think identifying it means for our purposes here.

Furthermore, and very importantly, this forum isn't a place for "how do you feel" polling. I hope everyone recognizes that what a given person feels about an issue is of no value or consequence here. What matters is what you can contribute, constructively, to a topic that can be addressed rigorously.

So if you could provide a concrete goal for the discussion, that will be very helpful as well. For instance, do you seek consensus that will affect the participants' future behavior? Or perhaps to refine a series of useful questions for us to make use of? Or is this perhaps in the service of designing a specific RPG? Please let us know.

Best,
Ron

A brief list of previous threads which all participants would do well to review:

In roughly chronological order:

The Depiction of Women in Gaming
Racial/Gender mechanics?
Well armed, large breasted women put people off games?
Goddess of rape?
Sex and Sorcery: Male and Female Story Types This is commentary on the book Sex and Sorcery, written by Ron and available through //www.indiepressrevolution.com
Sexism and gaming
Use of Gender Pronouns
Woman at the Forge
Most attractive setting for female players
Cross Gender Play or, Walk a Mile in my Stilletoes
Feminist Game Design
Trollbabe, Feminism, and the Chainmail Bikini
Lines, Veils and Breaking the Ice
Mechanical Gender Differences II III
Dead Inside Playtest, Gender Ratios, Mild Analysis
Why am I not a Woman?
Character/Player Gender Relationship
Gender: Dead Horse Flogging
Gender Based versus Gender Biased
Reasons for Cross Gender Play

There may be more -- this is the results of a cursory search.  As you can see, this has been pretty heavily discussed and, as you will find exploring these threads, this is often a highly contentious issue, and should be approached with some caution.

Also, let's all keep in mind that these threads cover a four year span of time, and that in this time opinions will have changed.

yrs--
--Ben

Wow, looks like I should really keep a better eye on things.

There's also this current Hero Quest thread:

The Hidden Sex Keyword?

Frank

That, and not all games simply go those routes. Sometimes if you look about you can find some surprises.
Final Twilight, my card game and novel, actaully has quite the cast of women, both in supporting and leading roles.
Of those, Kerra Neil I consider an excellent example of what someone who puts a little thought behind their women characters can create. She's strong, skilled, determined, most certainly does not "need to be rescued" (in fact, during a case of mistaken identity she nearly kills the male hero). She has an edge, but shes not a "cold hearted bitch"- toward Mark (the male hero), maybe, but she also views him as the enemy for 90% of the game/story. Between the three major players, she has equal "screen time" with the other two leads, the male hero and male villian. Game wise, I'd almost wager she's the most powerful character. And best of all, no sign of a chainmail bikini in sight now or ever- street clothes or jet black ninja-esque body suit and light plating make up her armorments.
Of the supporting cast we also have Carrie Brighton, the hero's fiance who saves his skin more times than he can count, and Ariel Parker, an archeologist who gets drug into the situation by virtue of leading a project the villian wants access to. As Kerra is posing as a student working on the project, she's also Kerra's boss.

Mainstream has a lot of stereotypes, granted. But, just take a look around . Forge has tackled it quite nicely in terms of roleplaying while other titles out there aren't as two dimensional as a fair deal of the mainstream garbage.

Well, tikki, I'll toss out some stuff, even if it's already been done, I'm new here too.  Mostly in response to your "Men who play female characters."

The first time I decided to play a female character with my all male group, it was met with a bit of surprise.  They were awkward around me.  The GM had warned me that if he didn't like my character, he'd off me -- and that trying to use sex  to get what I wanted wouldn't work.  (Apparently they had bad experiences with people trying to whore their way out of paying for room and board.)

I sort of played the character as I saw it -- I had no idea what my dear grey elf Rayne would end up like.  I tried some basic acting techniques (softening my voice, for one, to sound a bit more female) and so on... but mostly just to get into the character.

Rayne was a selfish, chaotic, occasionally brilliant, prone to overreacting some times, and yet in many ways a very dependable member of the party.  She would become upset when the male characters would lust after the hot NPCs, even if SHE had no interest in said male characters at all.  She rejected every advance, yet I could tell she enjoyed the attention.  She wasn't a slut, she wasn't a bitch, she wasn't too emotional -- but she sure as hell was not a man in drag.  She wore loose fitting robes for freedom of movement, and light elven chain.  The idea of wearing a chain mail bikini, or tight leather, or ANYTHING of the sort didn't click.  I was going on an adventure.  I needed hiking boots.  

She could be feminine of course... the nice silk dress was folded up in my backpack... "In case you guys finally decide to eat somewhere NICE tonight.  This is the first city we've seen in a MONTH and you want to hang out in the tavern?"

All this came pretty naturally.  I wasn't trying to be female, just asking myself how a female character who liked the easier side of life might react.  Wearing impractical clothing didn't click.  Going out to spend a few GP on some decent food DID.  (Maybe I was just projecting how I feel after two weeks of camping, but I know that's how I would feel!)

As a result. people treated her differently.  I wasn't a female PLAYER, I was a female character -- but people rallied around her to protect her.  Was this a sexist moment of the players?  Probably not.  Sexist moment of the CHARACTERS?  Maybe.  But some males -are- hard wired to protect the women.  (I was the magic user, of course, so there was a definite gamist reason to keep me safe.)

Over time I think the differences just disappeared.  I think my favourite moment was when I flung a fireball into a doorway -- blasting the previously unseen enemies behind it -- with no warning at all, just a hunch.  When asked how I knew, the response "Women's intuition?" came naturally.  Even better was that by this point, the other players didn't bat an eyelash.  It was the only cliche line I remember using.

I've moved on now.  I've noticed a lot of players -- GOOD players -- play a female character differently.  The biggest manslut can play quiet and reserved female characters, or even characters that have much higher standards.  I've seen more good roleplaying of female characters than I have bad -- and those people who play females as you say tend to play male characters of the singular "heroic hulking warrior" variety.  

There was ONE time a male character was playing a total Slut female, but it was BESM and she was a cat-girl, which says more for anime cliches than it does for RPGs.

I apply method acting to my characters, so maybe I'm one of the exceptions.  Still, I'd like to think otherwise.  As far as I am concerned, strong female leads are neither difficult, nor impossible to play.  Sometimes they have to deal with in character sexism, but then again, that would apply to any game, any time, as far as I'm concerned.

Tikkitikki,

Games are products. As such, they have a target audience. Those people who want to sell a lot of their product will create it in a way that appeals to the largest target audience. Certainly, there are many teenage boys who RP, and therefore sexual/sexist marketing can be successful. This does not only apply to RPGs, of course. Our Western culture is permeated with sexual cliches and social standards that continue to pressure people to fit into specific gender roles, leading for example to a continual rise in cosmetic surgery and cases of anorexia and bulemia. "The Body Project" by Joan Jacobs Brumberg shows how the "sexual liberation" has actually inflicted a whole new kind of oppression on women, who now have to measure their self-worth by how sexy they are (which is mostly measured in comparison to near-unattainable physical standards). Of course, they are expected to be sexy but not too sexual, always walking the line between the "cold-hearted bitches" and "seductive sluts" you mention.

Hence, the stereotypes in gaming are merely one instance of these cultural norms in action. A teenage kid who is bombarded with sexual advertising and stimulation, along with a healthy dose of hormones, will be used to the tie-in of products and sex. Therefore, free market capitalists will create games appropriately.

That does not mean that RPGs are by their nature sexist, or need to be geared towards men. Women can enjoy the creative or challenging aspects of RPGs just as much as men, and female characters can have the same depth, complexity and competence of male characters. It's a matter of liberation from oppressive stereotypes.

With all that said, I've played female characters (in freeform forums, mostly, and as a long-time GM) that I felt were as three-dimensional as my male characters, and they were neither averse to being strong nor having romantic feelings. Of course, I've unintentionally upset people who were playing with me who did not know that I was male, and who saw the RPing as a way of social contact with women (to put it nicely).

On playing a female character: Why is there an emphasis on 'doing it right'?

I mean, that implies that if I, as a male, play a male character, I'm automatically 'doing it right' in terms of playing a male role.

Why would that be true? To be precise, am I correctly portraying all the men in the world when I run my PC. No, I'm not. I'm portraying my particular PC.

The same principle carries over to playing a female PC. Women aren't all robots and the same, they are individuals and so is my PC.

Now, lets skip past gross stereo types. If a player plays male PC's intelligently rather than like a stereo typical Homer Simpson male moron, but then plays all females like sluts, then he's crap. Let's skip past that issue since it's clear cut.

Now, basically the sexism comes in in that if I (as a guy) play a female PC, I must be looking for some kind of trouble (in choosing a female PC, I've somehow requested this). I mean, why would I choose a female unless I'm looking to explore some conflict involved with women hood. Actually, that's a resonable assumption. The problem is, assumptions are made about what conflicts I'm interested in. So even though if I play a male, it's not assumed I'm asking for male issues (bulling, isolationism, whatever), if I play a woman I've invited any issue others think are related to that. That includes people assuming that if you play a female PC that 'you must do it right'.

Not that I'm sophisticated or anything. Recently I chose to play a woman in D20 modern because the archtype for the fast hero was a cool japanese chick and reminded me of the powerful chick in Ghost in the Shell as well. I chose her looks (and with it, gender) in much the same way I chose a cool looking gun or a cool looking car to go with my PC. All style, no substance is what I chose in this case (I don't always).

But I simply must face the 'What choo want, beyatch?' etc in play. Cause it fits the game world. Even though everyone in our group knows that if we brought in a uber male PC (or just one with some rank) and he bullied a PC into doing stuff, there would be outcry. But shit, that happens all the time in real life. Men want to escape that with their PC and pretty much edit it out of the game world because as men they hate it...but the female issues stay in in all their (often stereotypical) glory.

The two best gaming groups I have ever been with consisted of university students who were involved with theatre, writing, and/or the visual arts.  Both groups were about 50/50 male and female players.

In both those groups, it became a badge of honor for a male player to carry off playing a female PC and for a female player to carry off playing a male PC.  The more experienced gamers knew that the first efforts would most likely play off the sexist stereotypes of that particular campaign's genres -- we knew that most women gamers would play their first male PC as a genital-scratching oafish oblivious problems-solver and most men gamers would play their first female PC as either an ice queen uber-bitch or as a lascivious uber-bitch -- but we put up with the sexism of both genders because the entire groups treated this as a learning phase.  Not one player resorted to such sexist stereotypes of men or of women in her or his second attempt at playing the opposite gender.

During my grad work in gender studies, I found out one of the reasons men and women resort to those specific stereotypes.  Yes, one reason for this is the sexism inherent in many of the genres which roleplaying games replicate.  However, another reason has nothing to do with sexism.

It comes from envy of the perceived freedom of the other gender.

The women gamers would play male PCs who could allegedly get away with doing all the things women are forbidden to do -- they saw men on television and in films as able to get away with publically scratching their genitals, making earthy comments, doing asinine things and being called "loveable", and imposing solutions even when all the person in trouble wants is to be listened to.  Because the women gamers had never actually lived as men, they did not realize that, in real life, very few men actually have that kind of freedom.  They mistook fictional gender roles for real life.

Similarly, the men gamers would play female PCs who could allegedly get away with doing all the things men are forbidden to do -- they saw women on television and in films as able to maintain completely control over the sexual arena and as able to be as snarky as they want without risking being punched out or shamed by anyone.  (Have you noticed how heroines in most genre television seem to be immune to unwanted pregnancies and STDs and can slap, strike, and beat up any male they choose with impunity because if the male ever defends himself he will be castigated as abusive?)  Because the men gamers had never actually lived as women, they did not realize that, in real life, very few women actually have that kind of freedom.  Like the women, they mistook fictional gender roles for real life.

In one class, we were told the jest that "inside every woman is a woman who wants to scratch her balls in public and inside every man is a man who wants to be a bitch and called sexy for it."  I think that jest fits a lot of gamers who are trying to play the opposite gender for the first time.

Doctor Xero

Quote from: Doctor XeroBecause the women gamers had never actually lived as men, they did not realize that, in real life, very few men actually have that kind of freedom.  They mistook fictional gender roles for real life.

Really?  Theres not a lot in that description that came across as fictional to me so much as every day.  Like blokes farting and loudly commenting that "What doesn't pay rent must leave".  Fictional?  I think not.

Fictional, no, but the majority? I hope not! I know I'm not in that catagory and I'd wager a fair number here aren't. The fact it happens still isn't justification (on any level) for anything.
Stereotypes, with an understanding group, can be quite amusing as they're often charactures of one group or another. When used seriously, though, its defineyly harmful. If you were playing an overly stereotypical game with the understanding you could get away with it, thats one thing. If you're all playing fairly seriously/honestly and one player is an uber slut or an utter jackass and says "But thats how they are!", thats definetly not cool.

Quote from: contracycleReally?  Theres not a lot in that description that came across as fictional to me so much as every day.  Like blokes farting and loudly commenting that "What doesn't pay rent must leave".  Fictional?  I think not.

Fictional in that they mistook this well-publicized exception for the sanctified norm.

Men who fart and loudly comment that "what doesn't pay rent must leave" with zero social censure are no more common than women who are bitchy sluts who use sex for power with zero social censure.  Yes, there are men and women like that, and yes, there are even places where they might get away with it, but no, such men and women are not common, and moreover, they are not the sanctioned norm in most parts of our society.

At least, such in true in the majority of the United States.  I concede that my studies don't really extend beyond U.S. cultural borders.

Doctor Xero

Quote from: Doctor Xero
Fictional in that they mistook this well-publicized exception for the sanctified norm.

What I was describing was the norm.  Except in mixed company of course.

Quote
At least, such in true in the majority of the United States.  I concede that my studies don't really extend beyond U.S. cultural borders.

Ahuh.  Well thats a pretty sweeping limit.  But that said, with the modern anti-political correctness thing in full swing it seems unlikely to me.  Certainly I think your argument is detached from reality.

Hello,

Let's leave the "what reality is really like" issue to the individual reader and return to the role-playing side of things.

Best,
Ron