*
*
Home
Help
Login
Register
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
September 30, 2014, 03:52:31 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Forum changes: Editing of posts has been turned off until further notice.
Search:     Advanced search
275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 87 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
Pages: [1] 2
Print
Author Topic: Why I am going to buy Burning Wheel  (Read 5728 times)
dunlaing
Member

Posts: 308

My name is Bill


« on: January 13, 2005, 02:39:56 PM »

In this thread, Thor Olavsrud wrote:
Quote from: Thor Olavsrud
Quote from: bcook1971
It sounds like instincts are macros. And action-oriented play targets.


Absolutely, that's one level. I think of that as the Mechanical level.

In a way, what the BITs really do is help the group to establish the Social Contract.

At the mechanical level, my Instincts establish with the group that "my guy" functions in a slightly different way than the baseline rules. He's so aggressive that he actually starts combat in Aggressive Stance, even though other characters have to take an Action to do that.

Or, he's so cautious in the deep tunnels that he Assesses at every junction, even if I don't actually state that when it comes up.  In fact, that's so important to my character that if we all forget and suddenly turn a corner and run into something dangerous, we'll back up a step so I can roll my Assess to see whether I became aware of it.

Then there's what I'll call the Character level. This works on the principle that "Actions speak louder than words." Instincts are the most primal, compact way of telling everybody at the table what your character is about. Sure, my character has a few Beliefs that do that too, but those are more of a big picture thing. If my dwarf has the Instinct, "If there's a cave-in, then I Push the youngest to safety," that tells the entire group a lot about who my character is and what he values. First, he's careful and aware of the dangers that come with being underground. Second, his first thought is to protect someone else, not himself. And third, that someone else is the "youngest" meaning that he puts some sort of value on youth (and the group might rightly come to the conclusion that since he's the oldest dwarf in the group, and has taken the "Husband" lifepath, that this Instinct stems from a desire to protect children).

Finally, there's the Story level. On this level, the Instinct is a direct statement to the GM, "I want to showcase this aspect of my character." If I have the cave-in Instinct, I'm telling the GM that I want at least some of the game to happen underground in caves or tunnels, and I want to have a cave-in.

Anyway, that's Instincts as I see 'em.


For some reason, this just tipped me over the edge.

I had liked a bunch of what I heard about Burning Wheel, but I was afraid that it was way too rules heavy for me and had other little things that were keeping me from it. That Dwarf father thing got me though. Nice and elegant mechanic that says so much...


So...should I wait for the revision? And will the revision be available as a pdf right away?
Logged
Luke
Moderator
Member
*
Posts: 1359

Conventions Forum Moderator, First Thoughts Pest


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2005, 02:43:32 PM »

wait for the revision.

That passage is, in fact, in the Instincts section in the Revision!

-L
Logged

Thor Olavsrud
Member

Posts: 349


WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2005, 04:17:15 PM »

Quote from: dunlaing
For some reason, this just tipped me over the edge.

I had liked a bunch of what I heard about Burning Wheel, but I was afraid that it was way too rules heavy for me and had other little things that were keeping me from it. That Dwarf father thing got me though. Nice and elegant mechanic that says so much...


So...should I wait for the revision? And will the revision be available as a pdf right away?


Wow dunlaing! That brought a huge smile to my face.

To be honest, I've never really been a fan of "rules heavy" games either. For me, at least, Burning Wheel is different because the core rules are very simple: roll a pool of d6s, 4s or better are successes. Almost everything else in the game is an extension of that.

Personally, I think you should definitely wait for the Revision, for a number of reasons. First, it won't be long before it comes out.

Second, while the core rules in Burning Wheel Classic TM are as I described, there were a number of fiddly bits that weren't consistent. A huge effort has been made to clean those up and really streamline things. I think the new rules are both more elegant and more powerful.

Third, it gets rid of counting Paces in combat, which can be a real headache! In some of the other posts on this forum, you'll see Bill Cook really struggling to "get" them. Luke has now tossed 'em. Yay!

Fourth, the Revision has the new social mechanics that add a lot to the game and really let you take it in new directions. Specifically, the Duel of Wits which allows you to script debates, court cases and other verbal disputes in the same way Burning Wheel allows you to script combat. To be honest, most of the games I've been in lately have escalated to titanic verbal duels, not combats! And they've been incredibly intense and exciting. In addition to the DoW, the new Circles attribute adds a totally new way to deal with social networks. With these mechanics, a sprawling game of diplomatic intrigue or underworld maneuvering is mechanically supported. The "face" character, whose major ability is that he knows tons of people is now both mechanically viable, interesting, and valuable. Reputations and group affiliations are tied into this mechanic as well. Best of all, this is a really "player-empowered" mechanic that allows players to introduce new NPCs to the story if they roll their Circles attribute well enough.

Fifth, the Revision has the new resources mechanics that we've been playing with for a while. Haggling and trading and so on really becomes conflict-laden and interesting with these new mechanics. If you want to play a game in which the Fuggers and Medici go head-to-head in a battle for financial supremacy, these rules are for you! In our last campaign, our characters' quest to unseat the rival merchant families that controlled our city hinged on our ability to pool together our resources to contract mercenaries for one more month of employment. Everyone at the table was biting their nails as the roll was made!

While all this seems like a lot of additional rules, in fact they are just different implementations of the same mechanic. They are fluid and consistent and really a pleasure to work with in play.

And sixth, the lifepaths have been dramatically expanded! The various races have been completely overhauled, and emotional attributes (Grief for Elves, Greed for Dwarves, Hatred for Orcs) have been the focus of a lot of work. These attributes are now the axis mundi for these races, everything else revolves around them. A different group recently completed a Dwarf game (in which the Husband dwarf was my character!) in which the climax had the characters confront and struggle with their Greed, seeking to overcome it with their noble ideals. It was a titanic struggle and super intense! They finally had to work together to help each other overcome their base instincts!

As for a PDF, Luke has said that he has no plans to release either the Revision or the Monster Burner as PDFs until if and when they go out of print.
Logged

mrjam
Guest
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2005, 11:45:29 AM »

Quote
So...should I wait for the revision? And will the revision be available as a pdf right away?


Hey, Luke, another request for a .pdf version!

Should we open a petition about it?
Logged
Roger Eberhart
Member

Posts: 38


« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2005, 07:45:15 PM »

Is Monster Burner compatible with the Revision? I'm going to wait for the revision before buying the main rules, but was wondering if I should buy Monster Burner before they run out of print copies.

Thanks.
Logged
Thor Olavsrud
Member

Posts: 349


WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2005, 08:00:14 PM »

Quote from: Roger Eberhart
Is Monster Burner compatible with the Revision? I'm going to wait for the revision before buying the main rules, but was wondering if I should buy Monster Burner before they run out of print copies.

Thanks.


The Monster Burner is compatible with the Revision. There is a very short list of things that need to be updated, but they will be covered in errata that Luke will release when the Revision hits the market.
Logged

dunlaing
Member

Posts: 308

My name is Bill


« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2005, 09:17:44 AM »

What is the progress on the pdf version? Are the print copies anywhere near running out?
Logged
Thor Olavsrud
Member

Posts: 349


WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2005, 11:00:50 AM »

Quote from: dunlaing
What is the progress on the pdf version? Are the print copies anywhere near running out?


I don't believe so. But if it sold out this fast, I can assure you there'd be a second printing lickety-split.

At this point, and I'm not speaking for abzu here, I wouldn't count on a PDF version anytime in the forseeable future. If it happens, it probably won't be for several years. However, Luke has put up lifepath chapters from the character burner in PDF format for sale at Key20.
Logged

Luke
Moderator
Member
*
Posts: 1359

Conventions Forum Moderator, First Thoughts Pest


WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2005, 02:42:43 PM »

Quote from: dunlaing
What is the progress on the pdf version? Are the print copies anywhere near running out?


Hi Dunlaing,

where you at? I'm guessing that shipping is expensive for you. Which sucks, I say. Sucks.

Anyway, I'm planning on keeping BWR in print for as long as possible. I have an abiding love of printed matter and I'm quite proud of the way BWR looks and feels. So no pdfs in the near future. Terribly sorry.

-Luke
Logged

dunlaing
Member

Posts: 308

My name is Bill


« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2005, 05:26:38 AM »

Quote from: abzu
Quote from: dunlaing
What is the progress on the pdf version? Are the print copies anywhere near running out?


where you at? I'm guessing that shipping is expensive for you. Which sucks, I say. Sucks.

No, shipping ism't expensive for me. I live in Washington, DC. I'm just really into getting my rpgs as pdfs these days. (plus, instant gratification is cool).

I suppose I'll have to order the printed version :(
Logged
Paganini
Member

Posts: 1049


WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2005, 05:44:08 AM »

If it's any consolation, the actual product is really, really nice. It's like, you know, an actual book. Not like an RPG.
Logged

dunlaing
Member

Posts: 308

My name is Bill


« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2005, 07:37:33 AM »

Quote from: Paganini
If it's any consolation, the actual product is really, really nice. It's like, you know, an actual book. Not like an RPG.

???
I like RPGs.

I did just order the books though (Revised and Monster Burner is everything, right?)
Logged
Paganini
Member

Posts: 1049


WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2005, 02:55:03 PM »

The product. As in the book. It's nice. Like something made by real people from a real publishing company. Not like an RPG.
Logged

dunlaing
Member

Posts: 308

My name is Bill


« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2005, 05:40:22 AM »

Quote from: Paganini
The product. As in the book. It's nice. Like something made by real people from a real publishing company. Not like an RPG.


Ok. When it gets here, I'll expect it to look much nicer than Nobilis, then? Or Adventure!?
Logged
Paganini
Member

Posts: 1049


WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2005, 08:06:01 AM »

Definitely better than Adventure. I haven't seen Nobilis, so I can't say for sure on that one.
Logged

Pages: [1] 2
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Oxygen design by Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!