Mechanism for the 'Hard Core'

[Uccisore]

In my Magic And Martial Arts Horror Game, one theme that I envision the coming up in the game is the players becoming distant from society because of their exposure to violence.  Having stared down someone that has drawn a sword with the intentions of killing you, having seen someone get their arm cut off by an axe, these sorts of things should give you an advantage over someone who 'knows how to fight', but has never had that same exposure.  At the same time, it should give you a disadvantage of sort when going to your 11 year old daughter's birthday party. Even in more subtle ways, people who live a life of crime and violence end up thinking differently, and 'dropping out' of normal society.   The movie 'The Way of the Gun' illustrated nicely how a person changes once they decide to live a different sort of life, the sort of thing I want to simulate.
     Unknown Armies did it ok,  I suppose. Has anyone else played with mechanics to represent the transformation of a Normal Person into Dirty Harry or one of the protagonists of Apocalypse Now? Do you think mechanics for such a thing are even nessecary, or should a good story just bring this out on it's own?

[Callan S.]

No, I think it's better to do that than just leaving it on end users to bring out the theme you determined as the system author (ie, if its up to a good story to bring it out, then it's leaving it to paying customers to do the work).

One thing about the little girls birthday party though. Suppose you fail to socialise there...how would you differentiate that from a normal failure. I mean, a regular person could just fail at socialising correctly...without any system encouragement the social failures of these hardened warriors will likely be the same (or atleast have no system reason to be different), except that they will happen more often. This makes him more like a goof in public, rather than the distanced killer he is becoming.

It'd be interesting if this hardcore thing actually added to social roles, because he's so hard and tough and unflinching. But then you have a second social roll where it's a minus, for the PC socially connecting. They may think he's cool, but he may look at them like ants (on a fail). From here you could probably draw something...fail at the kids party and next time your on the battlefield, you do something which shows your disconnection, like putting innocents at danger without thought (or even killing them in the name of mission completion).

That'll piss off the narrativists though...it'd have to be clearly labeled in sim terms.

[LordSmerf]

That'll piss off the narrativists though...it'd have to be clearly labeled in sim terms.

I don't want to take this thread too far from it's original topic, but why do you say that Callan?

As to the original question posed by the thread:  I think a mechanical encouragement of any theme you really want to see played out is an excellent idea.  If you can come up with a great mechanic that illustrates this "being apart" thing then I have nothing but encouragement for you.

Mechanics can be a great tool for driving theme, just take a loot at My Life with Master for an example.  The Reason, Fear, Love, Self-loathing, and Weariness that are the central themes of the game are all tied drectly into the mechanics of the game.

Thomas

[Callan S.]

My wording is a little enthusiastic. I mean you'll need to build this into SC. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if someones presented with a 'Do you fail the mission, or kill/harm the innocents to pass it?' they'll desire to answer it themselves, because nar is fun (or they may even have sim reasons for answering it). They wont want the system to answer that (like it did in my example), unless you've managed to establish that as a very explicit part of the SC from the start.

[LordSmerf]

Ah, I think I see what you're saying, but I think I still disagree...

The key to me would be that my choices mattered somewhere in that mechanical set.  Was it something I chose that made my character inhuman in some way?  Well then, this is the system pointing out the results of that choice ("Sure it's easier to kill people, but the world is less real to you.").  That strikes me as very Narrativist...

Look at Sorcerer.  There's this Humanity thing, it tracks how "Human" you are (with what "Human" is being defined pre-play).  This mechanic straight up tells you.  What makes it so good at facilitating Narrativism is that it is impacted by the choices you make.  Once you make those choices the value of Humanity in turn impacts play.

So, as long as the choices of the players can impact the mechanics that informs play at this level, then all's good in the neigborhood.

Of course, that may be what you're saying already...

Thomas

[Uccisore]

One thing about the little girls birthday party though. Suppose you fail to socialise there...how would you differentiate that from a normal failure.

     It's so hard to pinpoint...I think the thing I want would be calling for rolls in situations where normal folks wouldn't be rolling at all.  I can just picture one of these 'hard core' guys...I dunno, cleaning their gun at a wedding, or telling a joke about the time they stabbed someone in the throat, stuff like that. Things that don't have a huge impact on the game, but should still be felt, and should be out of player control somewhat.
   A friend of mine was an army medic in the Gulf (the first time around, in '92), and I remember one of the stories he told me was that some of his buddies over there would practice their sutures by slicing into their own legs with a scalpel, and then sewing it up themselves.  That moves me. A person who would do something like that has definately been changed by their experiences, in good ways and bad ways.
    I guess I need to solidly define what it is I'm after before I can begin to develop a mechanic for it, but are some of you all at least on my same wavelength with this?

[LordSmerf]

If by "on the same wavelength", you mean am I also moved fascinated by this imagery, then yes.  I think that's pretty cool and a bit scary, but in a good way.

Thomas

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Ucissore,

Here are some games for you to check out!

1. The first edition of Cyberpunk, which included a process by which player-characters became hardened to combat, and thus less penalized by stress as bullets are whizzing around. See also the Humanity rules for cyberware, as a basis for what I'll mention next.

2. Any version of Vampire, whether The Masquerade or Requiem. These games utilize a modified form of the Humanity rules from Cyberpunk, in which lowered values indicate more callous, less empathetic behavior. (See also the relevant rules in Kult, which are similar and more severe.)

I strongly suggest looking at multiple editions/revisions of Vampire, of whatever subtitle, as they demonstrate a lot of "play" and re-writing of these concepts.

3. Finally, check out the rules for Humanity in Sorcerer, which are quite different from those in #2. If it were to be locally customized to include attention to others' emotions (all Humanity in Sorcerer is customized by play group), then some of the effects you're describing would factor strongly into play.

Best,
Ron

[Paul Czege]

Hi Uccisore,

It's so hard to pinpoint...I think the thing I want would be calling for rolls in situations where normal folks wouldn't be rolling at all.

I totally get what you're after. Back when Zak Arntson was working on Chthonian, I made a design suggestion how he might implement a character's effectiveness against the horrific having a monstrous and negative impact on the character in normal social scenes (and vice versa, effectiveness in normal scenes would manifest as denial and ineffectiveness against the truly horrific). Check it out http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?p=1683&highlight=#1683">here.

Paul

[Uccisore]

I think the combat aspect most reasonable to affect with this in my game is Initiative.  It makes sense to have people desensitized act first, and I already have plenty of things to keep track of with hit/dodge/damage rolls as it is.
As far as the downside, I may have a 'suggested role-play list'.  In other words, if you have 1 point of Hardcore, you get a 1 point bonus to initiative, but you are expected to justify it in non-combat role-play, and there is a list of suggestions and flavor-text next to each level of Hardcore giving examples of what someone with it ought to be like.  If you don't justify it, the GM has the right to stick his nose in and have you tell the wrong joke, or forget to clean the blood and hair off the shovel before throwing it in the back seat of your car, or whatever.
In some cases, if a character is trying actively to suppress their 'Hardcore' tendencies to make a public appearence, I may have the benefit of Hardcore be temporarily suppressed as well- never completely, but somewhat.

[apparition13]

Hey Uccisore;

Two games come to mind.  The first is Twilight 2000, which had a hesitation rule.  The less combat experience you had the less actions you go during a turn.  I don't remember the exact numbers, but for example a more experienced combatant might get 4 actions in 10 seconds while a less experience one might get 2.  

The second game is Unknown Armies, which included a madness meter system that tracked five "categories of stress".  These were violence, the unnatural, helplessness, isolation and self (as in alienation from self, guilt etc.).  Successful resistance rolls to stress "hardened" the character to further stress, failed rolls unbalanced the character,  both types of rolls were tracked.  It was really a very slick looking system.  Anyone have actual play reports on how it worked?  Certainly worth a look.  I'd say get your hands on it if you can.  If nothing else it'll give you an example of what you're working on.

[Lee Short]

To add to what Ron said, you should also check out the Steel rules in The Burning Wheel.  Seems to be almost exactly what you're looking for.

[Russell Collins]

The concept of increasing detachment from "polite" society as a combat verteran hardens is crucial to the kind of games you want, and a mechanic for it should be in place. There could even be two stats, one for the player and one for the game master, so that the player doesn't recognize how far gone he is until put to the test.

To take the innocent bystander example, the hard guy doesn't necesarily shoot through them to hit his target, but he might open fire without even thinking about them, or noticing they are there. The game master just simplifies the descriptions of other people so that they are just shadows and smoke around the real target.

"I never even saw her!" Exactly. Does your character feel like he was deceived? Good. This is the kind of gamble you take when you want to be the bigger dog.

The problem comes in balancing the player's frustrations with those of his character. But you need to remind him what he's putting on the line by pursuing the badass award. If he wants to wait for a clean shot, sometimes the villain will get away, but maybe that's not as hard to live with.