Egypt Needs Characters (and a few mechanics)

[amiel]

Just a thought. Faith and reason could be your opposed religious stats.
                                                                        -amiel

[Mike Holmes]

Great ideas - I feel like I should be paying you guys a consultancy fee or something ...  :)

Then I'd have to pay for Mars and Zenobia, and...on balance I'd say that we come out more than ahead. Don't sweat it.

I like the whole "giving Egypt stats" thing.  I would suggest that it's at least partially independent of the PC's.  They are, after all, not solely responsible for its health.  It should definitely be influenced by the PC's, though...

Yeah. That goes back to the Pharoh. Make the Pharoh's stats form the base for Egypt. Then the player's stats modify those in different directions, perhaps.

I like the idea of the Pharoh actually phsically suffering when Egypt suffers. This could be a mystical link, or metaphorical. Egypt is invaded? The same day the Pharoh falls and is injured. Egypt is suffering economically? The Pharoh's coffers are light, etc.

Anyhow, eventually one of the PCs might replace the Pharoh. As the Pharoh ages his stats may falter. Eventually he may need to be replaced or just die of old age. Or maybe he is corrupted somehow. Lots of reaons to replace him and rejuvenate the Kingdom.

Mike

[Mithras]

So, you end up with a charsheet that can be made to look like papyrus (easy enough to download a texture), has heiroglyphic symbols down one edge, and is arranged in columns.  Do all text with a strong brush font and I think you'd have a funky concept.  I could do a rush over the weekend, if you liked the idea and would be in a position to nail the 7 zones down firmly.

Sorry contracycle, I missed this part of your post when I was reading this thread. I'd love to see your take on this character sheet. I was planning to print out on papyrus-style paper, and include a few hieroglyphs and such.

I've done a bit of thinking and come up with the 7 aspects of the soul with equivalents for the aspects of Egypt: religion, art, fertility, production, trade, glory and war. The pairs of attributes matching these are: Tradition/Spirit, Perception/Intuition, Health/Survival, Nobility/Humility, Brash/Subtle, Bravery/Caution, Strength/Agility. Their equivalences with the aspects of the soul are quite nice - very appropriate.

But. And a big but. 14 attributes??? Is this workable? If so I will keep skills to the binary on/off level rather give them values.

14 attributes?

And I think I'm going for 1d8 plus attribute ranging from 1-6. I'd use nifty d4 instead but I hate the buggers!

[Epoch]

I've done a bit of thinking and come up with the 7 aspects of the soul with equivalents for the aspects of Egypt: religion, art, fertility, production, trade, glory and war. The pairs of attributes matching these are: Tradition/Spirit, Perception/Intuition, Health/Survival, Nobility/Humility, Brash/Subtle, Bravery/Caution, Strength/Agility. Their equivalences with the aspects of the soul are quite nice - very appropriate.

But. And a big but. 14 attributes??? Is this workable? If so I will keep skills to the binary on/off level rather give them values.

14 attributes?

And I think I'm going for 1d8 plus attribute ranging from 1-6. I'd use nifty d4 instead but I hate the buggers!

I...  Don't think that you can justify 14 attributes.  I'd like it very much if you could, since your proposed structure is very elegant, but I just don't think that you can.  It's enough attributes that I'd have problems dealing with them all, and I'm Mr. Systems-Heavy-Guy.

I'd have a lot of difficulty making an on-the-fly judgement whether something pertains to the Bravery attribute vs. the Brash attribute, for example, and I'm just baffled by what the distinction is between Health and Survival.  It would also be almost certain that some attributes would be underused.

I'm racking my brain for some other way to think of how to combine the concept of balance within a stat scheme and the seven aspects of the soul.  Nothing yet.

By the way, with your proposed system, a difficulty 8 action is doable by the least-competent individual 25% of the time, but the most-competent person fails at it 12.5% of the time.  That could be a feature or a flaw -- just wanted to point it out.

[Mithras]

It all looks lovely on paper - yes. But 14 attributes is way more than I would accept if I bought a game. Id chuck out all but 4 (which is what I used to do with ICE's Cyberspace game).

Back to the drawing board I think.

[Mike Holmes]

See, that's the symetry problem again (my fault, too). Just because there are seven parts to the Egyptian soul does not mean you should force seven pairs. Consider asymetry as a possibility. Often asymetry produces more possibilities than symetry.

How about this? Perhaps there are three matched pairs, and an unmatched stat. A total of seven stats, you get matched pairs, and an exception. Make religion or one of the other difficult to match stats the solo stat. Have that stat balance in a different way. If you used the war stat it could also represent hits, for example, which would mean that it would be reduced in combat. Or something like that. Just gives you more to work with. An interesting interplay between the pairs and single stat might be interesting. Perhaps a balance stat?

Lots of possibilities.

Mike

[Blake Hutchins]

Fourteen does feel like too many, particularly when a number of them simply aren't intuitively clear as to what they represent.  Further, I agree that some appear to overlap, such as Brash and Bravery.

I like the idea of the stats being personality attributes.  Seven would work, and having three main pairs and a metagame attribute as the seventh would work nicely.  Given my preferences, I'd prefer Bravery/Caution, Tradition/Spirit, and Nobility/Humility.  Possibly replace Tradition/Spirit with Logic/Intuition, though those don't strike me as personality traits.  I always liked adjectives in this wise rather than nouns, hence: Brave/Cautious, Traditional/Free-spirited, Noble/Humble.  I wouldn't mind something like Spiritual/Worldly in place of the Traditional/Free-spirited.

For a seventh meta-stat, you might consider Will or some kind of Faith attribute.  Stormbringer used Elan as a measurement of a priestly character's favor in the eyes of the Gods.  It was a stat without permanent points.  You received Elan points for acting as a loyal priest and serving your God.  When you burned them for miracles, they were gone.

When I see the Strength/Agility split, it makes me yawn.  The Kap is such a fresh concept that I don't think you need to go the route of mapping out all the traditional physical skills.  Ho-hum.  Instead, keep the paired personality attributes a la Pendragon, and then give the player Virtues to represent gifts of any stripe, from Mighty Arms to Great Beauty to Stupendous Tolerance for Strong Drink.  These virtues would provide fortune bonuses when triggering circumstances are met.

Best,

Blake

[Mytholder]

Ok, you want a theme of "balance" and you want a seven in there, but you don't want 14 attributes.

Arrange the stats in a seven-sided shape (septagon?). Adjacent stats are opposed. So we've got...

Tradition vs Perception
Perception vs Bravery
Bravery vs Social Standing
Social Standing vs Strength
Strength vs ....

Gah. That's not working as written, but you get the idea. There have got to be workable combos in there somewhere.

[Mike Holmes]

Gareth of The Land of Ire,

That's Brilliant and very cool. Here's my suggestion for the septagon:

Humility
Nobility
Honesty
Creativity
Tradition
Wisdom
Power

Each is opposed by the next on the list, Power being opposed by Humility.

Here's a buying system. Start with 14 Balance points. Each stat starts at seven, and for one Balance point you can lower a stat and raise the opposing stat by two. You may not blow more than six balance points on raising/lowering a single pair. For each balance point purchase (representing a combination raising/lowering) the player must choose a descriptor that he feels describes the imbalance.

For example, if I lower my Humility by three to raise my Nobility by Six, I can use the descriptor "Important Father". Then if I lower my Nobility by one to raise my Honesty by two I can describe it as "Honest Upbringing". This gives me a Humility of four, a Nobility of twelve, an Honesty of nine, and ten remaining Balance points.

Note that by using two balance points on each stat you would end up with all nines and no balance points left. And the system gives you a range of possible stats from one to nineteen (d20?). Again, Then you would balance the Balance Points as Egypt power versus personal power. So a player would rarely use all fourteen balance points, unless he wanted to explore the selfish character.


Given the above cycle, then the aspects of Egypt would be found in the Interactions of the oppositions. A possible version:

Humility
---Diplomacy
Nobility
---Trade
Honesty
---Art
Creativity
---Production
Tradition
---Religion
Wisdom
---War
Power
---Fertility

Hey, that came out pretty good, if I do say so.

Each unspent balance point could be used to raise the Egypt attribute in an area. If a character is unbalanced in that area, he is limited to contributing at most one point in that area.

How do you like them ideas?

I really like the concept of creating Egypts attrributes as part of the players' CharGen.

Mike

[Mithras]

Mike, I can't keep up with your nifty ideas! I'm still messing around with 7 stats, 6 of which are paired plus a rogue stat.

I've done some work on the structure of the experience system (for want of a better word). Characters choose to be educated either at the Kap in the scribal art, culture and warfare; or at the only other place where education is available, the Egypt-wide Houses of Life, training men for the priesthood in the scribal art, religion and magic. Essentially your deciding to create either a Warrior-Priest or a Wizard-Priest (to put it bluntly). All will be priests, climbing up a long ladder of responsibility and power, even the graduates of the Kap, who will be the elite priests of Horus, the royal cult.

Both types of characters (and my descriptions as warriors or wizards are crude labels) seek office within Egyptian bureacracy. There are 1001 different offices of all ranks, from lowly senior scribe to supervisor of canals, leader of archers, chief ambassador to Syria, royal scribe and grand vizier... Each provides an occupation, wages and social rank. You keep moving up if you can, sideways if you can't. This simulates the rigid status orintated world of Egypt fairly well. But its not the focus of the games, its just the focus of the experience system.

My notes on saving Egypt still apply, I've just opened the net a little wider. I want more magic in the game since its something I've never done before. And Egypt just screams magic .. doesn't it?

Thanks Blake, Myth-holder. Comments appeciated and assimilated. Absolutely wonderful stuff...

[Le Joueur]

Hey Mithras?  Um, last time I checked Egyptians had nine parts to what we might term 'the soul.'  I don't know where you've done your research, so I won't go any farther into it other than to suggest what you could do if you wanted 7 'attributes' based on them.

First of all, I wouldn't call them 14 separate attributes because it sounds like the pairings would never both yield a low number.  I mean, if each pair always adds up to the same number (in this case 7), then I think they'd be more continuums than separates.

Second, if you want a 'visual model,' how about the three dimensional axes?  I know, I know; there's only three right?  (Or six if you count them as continuums.)  Don't forget an obvious seventh, the point of origin.  That gives seven; up, down, right, left, backward, forward, and origin.

Finally, based on my research into Egyptology I would put forth these suggestions of 'attributes:' (Warning, as a lay person and rogue scholar, I've terribly murdered the original meanings.)

To start with forward, the Khu, defined as will and intentions, would probably be your Bravery/Caution.  Although this is more along the lines of Impetus/Reflection.

For left, the Sekhem, defined as magic, would likely be the Tradition/Spirit attribute you listed.  Sekhem has to do with the actual use of magic, unless I misunderstand.  This makes it something like Ritual/(some word meaning essentially 'wildness').

Right, the Ab, defined as intellect, both matches your Perception/Intuition or Wisdom & Ignorance (Religion).  If you think Ignorance is too negative, how about making it Insight/Willful.

On to up, the Ren, defined as name, and being most 'holy,' could be your Nobility/Humility.  (I especially like Ren and took it as an anchor for Scattershot’s grand metaphysic, which is based on the five elements.)

At center, the Ba, defined as link between the soul and the mind, could have bearing on what you termed Health/Survival; sort of a mind/body health thingie.

Backward, the Khat, defined as the physical body, pretty much matches up with your Strength/Agility (which I assume speculated about being more one or another

or balanced).

And down, the Khaibit (the shadow), defined as the unconscious, sounds like it might capture the meaning of your Brash/Subtle or Honesty/Deceit (although how you get Diplomacy out of that suggests a little editorial cynacism).[/list:u]But that leaves two more: Sahu, defined as immortal body and Ka, defined as the double.  (I leave these out of the above both to reach your target number of seven and because the deal more in the 'after death' aspect of ancient Egyptian life.)

So far, it’s looking good, but I worry who you're going to interest in playing.  Who's your target audience?

Fang Langford

[Valamir]

Me Me.  The person for whom Palladium's Pharoah game makes my list of all time favorite games.  The game for which my personal liabrary is now overflowing with books on Egypt.  The only person on the planet still searching for the supposed supplement to Palladiums short lived game.

Pharoah BTW sums up the entire Palladium company for me.  The one game they ever did that was actually good last for 1 short print run.  The rest of their crap has 18 million splat books.  Palladium pisses me off.  THEY don't even remember if they actually released the Pharoah supplement.  Hell most of 'em don't even remember releaseing that game at all.

But, I digress.  Egypt is one of the coolest possible historical settings to game in ever.  The hardest part of gaming in Egypt is working around the confines of the Egyptian class system without just ignoring it (Roving bands of free lancing adventurers were well known in Egypt.  They were called criminals and promptly killed or enslaved).  What THIS game sounds like is a game which doesn't seek to work *around* the egyptian class system, but actually use it as a primary feature of game play.

THAT is a game I must play.

[Mithras]

Hey Mithras?  Um, last time I checked Egyptians had nine parts to what we might term 'the soul.'

Yeah, I've got a book here which definately says 7 parts. But the Egyptians did have multiple versions of the same beliefs so it doesn't surprise me that someone else says 9. Beliefs changed over time ... you know the rest. I have heard of the Sah and understood that to be a creation after death, the soul being created when the ka and ba are reunited. The immortal soul.

As for target audience .. hmm.. me? I always do stuff I find cool. I never thought anyone other than myself would think MARS was remotely interesting or gameable. But I've run it and loved it, and I know others who like it alot - despite the preponderance of geology in it! If someone else likes this game, then great!

[Mike Holmes]

Paul,

So does that mean you're sticking with seven or going wth nine as Fang suggests? And if you are going with seven, then do you want to link them to the historical seven parts of the soul? And if so, are the ones that Fang listed the ones you want? And if going with these and with seven, which two are to be dropped (the ones Fang mentioned after the fact, or others)? Do you agree with Fang's assesments of the parallels? Perhaps you should just go with the Egyptian terms as stats themselves, with good descriptions on the character sheet. I'm sure we can come up with opposing stats or a cycle for those as well.

Oh, and another thought. Perhaps if two of those parts of the sould are "post death" parts, then a player can play the character with seven, and then when he dies refactor the charater and have him continue to contribute to Egypt when dead. The eighth and ninth parts would be added to the character then (and possibly two others like the physical body and something else appropriate could be taken away). That way there would be nine potential parts, but only seven at play at any time.

That would be an interesting twist, IMO. Perhaps a player can have one live and one dead character. Live characters might want to look at their stats to change them over time to make sure that they can thrive in the afterlife. Lots of possibilities, there. When a character dies he can have an adventure that follows the book of the dead. Perhaps only a few make it intact to the afterlife. Makes for an interesting goal while alive, and jibes with Egyptian cosmology, if I'm not mistaken.

Just some things to clarify before anybody continues.

Mike

[Mithras]

So does that mean you're sticking with seven or going wth nine as Fang suggests? And if you are going with seven, then do you want to link them to the historical seven parts of the soul? And if so, are the ones that Fang listed the ones you want? And if going with these and with seven, which two are to be dropped (the ones Fang mentioned after the fact, or others)? Do you agree with Fang's assesments of the parallels? Perhaps you should just go with the Egyptian terms as stats themselves, with good descriptions on the character sheet. I'm sure we can come up with opposing stats or a cycle for those as well.

Nine stats are too many. Seven is do-able. So one way or another I think I'm sticking with seven. I might incorporate some of Fang's aspects into my list. I'm already thinking of ditching 'stat names' and using the Egyptian titles with plenty of description. Good idea!

Dead Egyptians. I've read a great book looking at Egyptians, one chapter for each class (scribes, women, soldiers, etc) with one chapter devoted to the dead - the dead that still have influence over life in ancient Egypt. This is cool. I definately want to have the dead playing an active part in life. And mummies  - how can I avoid them? Why should I? As an integral linking metaphor for Egypt I want to exploit the mummy without letting them dominate the game as White Wolf's Mummy game did.

Still thinking... calculating ...juggling ...