The Forge Archives

Roleplaying is like sex, y'know? And I'm a hanging out getting to know each other, not on the first date kind of guy. So, yes, a gaming con, but I'm like, roleplay with you? I barely even know you.

Worst: Baron Munchausen. Michael Miller has, apparently, gotten to play Baron Munchausen at every con he's been to for a long, long time. So he pulls it suggestively out of his bag and I'm like, I dread that game with a dread borne of full and accurate self-knowledge. But do I say that? Nope, instead I say, "can people actually play that game?" Stupid.

It turns out that, yes, they can, and do, and sometimes they expect you to play it with them. And what are you going to say, thanks but I'd rather watch?

Fortunately, my fellows at the table were very gracious about my (note to self: don't say "dysfunction") dysfunction (dammit, self) and we moved from Joshua's Commadore's entertaining story about how he learned the tongue-language of the giraffes from that people's queen (under the very nose of that people's king) almost hitchlessly right on to Tony's Viscount's entertaining story about how he had polar bears sent by parcel post to the south pole so he could use the splinters of the true cross to build a bridge across the Hellespont. God save the kings and queens of everyone we like, bugger the rest.

Better: Dogs in the Vineyard. I'd get all twitchy about having to run it in a couple hours or whatever, like, oh lord, we're going to sit down at the table and I'm the guy who has to say the first word, and it has to be just right for my game which I love so much and would so hate to let down...

But then I'd remember character creation and breathe a big sigh of relief. Oh yeah, I'd go, we'll make characters first, so by the time I have to say anything but explain the rules, they and I will be all ready and rarin'.

We made some scary good characters. A first town dealt with is just a first town dealt with, but some of those characters had legs. Maybe some of the characters' makers will tell about them, if they feel like it.

The sadness of con games is that you never get a second date.

Anyway better still: the Mountain Witch. That game ... that game's a sweetie. We played with the full complement of six players plus Tim. It was great for me - there were other people doin' hot things in the early game, so I could play my character reserved and easy. I can't possibly tell the whole story of it, but I killed the Mountain Witch:

It came to be that my ronin swore loyalty to Judd's, becoming Judd's character's samurai. Later, when we finally won to the Mountain Witch, Judd's character's lord and father - now, my lord's lord - was at tea with the Mountain Witch himself.

The Mountain Witch points at me. "You're unlike the rest," he says. "You don't hate me."

It's true. "I hate whom my lord hates," I say.

"I hate you very much," Judd says.

"Oh come now," my lord's lord, Judd's character's father, says, "you know we've been long allies. Again, you disappoint me."

Judd (he's putting his affairs in order, there's only one thing he can do to his father now, in a little while he'll do it and I'll be his second) but for now he turns to me. "I am not worthy to be your lord. I release you from service. Go be a monk," he says.

Viscerally: I do hate the Mountain Witch, all at once, for the shame he's inflicted on my lord.

Viscerally: No longer bound to serve my lord, I'm suddenly free to do his will.

Fuckin' yeah.

On the train home, we're talking about all the games, and Joshua's telling me how the Discernment game he played makes him want to play a game all about leige and loyalty. I get this satisfied, drowsy look on my face. I've said all I have to say about leige and loyalty. I am leige-and-loyalty fulfilled.

-Vincent

Seppeku never felt so good.

That Mountain Witch game was fantastic.

High points:

The gaijin from Portugal and Clinton's samurai in a midnight duel over a woman:

"I sheathed my blade in her blood!"

Rob's easy betrayal of us all:

"At first I was not sure who to hand to the Mountain Witch, as only the gaijin was despicable but I have since reconsidered, they are all animals."

I adore how when a character dies he can still allocate trust and thus keep the player in the game.  That absolutely rocks.  Their spirit is still with us.

The samurai with the frost-bitten feet, love-sick for his dead lord, crawling through the Mountain Witch's keep.

Vince's silent, honorable samurai who my PC didn't trust because he showed no sign of dis-honor.  I put my trust to 0 because he was just too sqeaky clean and my character could not conceive of anyone being a ronin and being that pure.

Turns out he was.

Somewhere around here I have the haiku I wrote during the game, 3 in all.  Fun stuff.  Last month I taught the kids in the after-school program where I worked to write haiku and so it was fresh on my mind.

Great game, a fantastic one-shot in a bottle and I don't think samurai going up Fujii is all it can do either.  I think this game could do hiest movies and possibly even a trip through Moria of some sort.

Fun stuff.

I finally got to play Dogs in the Vineyard, and it was fantastic!  (No surprise to anyone here, of course.)  Just as everyone at the Forge table told me, the system really comes alive when you move from reading about it in the book to actually rolling the dice.  Of course, some of the magic may have come from Vince's GMing skills, so I'll have to try it again with another GM to know for sure.

During the game, the characters came alive quickly and easily during trait assignment and the initiatory conflicts.  I really enjoyed playing Brother Charity, what with his being afeared of Brother Moses and all; the intra-group conflict would have been interesting had the game continued into further sessions.  Likewise, I would have enjoyed the opportunity to explore other aspects of the character.  I thought it interesting that his strongest Traits (Horses Trust Me and I Know Every Star) never came into play, yet I somehow managed to shoehorn the I Can Cook Anything trait into two different scenes.

Unfortunately, I'm currently in the "This finely-tuned indie game is so cool, I can use it for anything!" phase.  Hopefully I won't break Dogs too badly as I try and convert it for use in an Amber setting.

I also got to meet a bunch of other great people from the Forge (Clinton, Tony LB, Michael M, Keith S, and probably some others I've forgotten -- I blame the drugs).  Everyone was funny, friendly and insightful.  Thanks to everyone who was there for making a good convention much, much better!

- Eric

Wow, Judd, I forgot your haiku for some reason.  That was great.

And Vince, man, I simultaneously loved and hated your character (in character).  I couldn't get a handle on him!

Paka, I meant it very seriously when I said how excellent you are as a roleplayer. I've never seen anyone so easily falling into character and conducting the story. I found myself wanting to be in games just because I saw you there.

Mountain Witch was a monster, and, as Tim no doubt foresaw, it was not the eponymous Witch that made it so. That the primary mechanic is Trust reflects the genre so accurately that we almost didn't have to work to make the game function; strategizing about effective play is the same as good role-playing. I think that any serious modification of the game has to very carefully take the story into account. Tim, correct me please if I'm wrong, but I think a Mountain Witch game has to include:

- Strangers brough together by mutual desire for payment (it can be glory, or experience, or whatever, too - the money is very abstract, so it can be an abstract desire, I think)

- They must be pressed by circumstance to require each others' assistance; solitary struggles probably require help and big, communal ones demand it.

- The characters' technical excellence must be guaranteed. One of the things about Samurai movies is that they show the difference in soul between an excellent swordsman and a master.

- The Buddhist cosmology works really well and it might be hard to change. Tim, I'm not sure how much you realize the Buddhist underpinnings of the Ronin genre, but it follows it so well

By the time we played, I'd already played through My Life with Master. I'd been ambivalent about it before: "If the ending's always the same, how is the story going to be any different?" I didn't see until play started that the story revolved around the characters' need to kill Master, not his eventual death. That where the Good Stuff lay was in the character interactions, just like in any genre piece.

Consider Mike Mearls' classic reasons why MLWM isn't an RPG: you know the end state. Of course, you know the end state of a dungeon crawl, too. You know the end state of a Steal The World-Smasher spy story (can you imagine James Bond if the world's devolved into a post-apocalyptic Road Warrior thing?). You know the end of a Samurai story (if it's done as well as MW). The important thing is what happens to the characters in the process, not the ending.

I can't think of a single reason not to put that game of My Life with Master  in the upper echelons of Great Role-Playing Games I've Played. Damn, the characters were good. I loved seeing Rob'sTor Johnson slapping himself on the head and saying "Nice words confuse MAWG!". I loved Judd's character with the huge, tearing eyes yelling at Master that it was selfish for the character to hate Master, and that, rather than hate Master, he wanted to become Master. Andrew's inimicable butler who cannot be seen unless called by name agreeing "Yes, Master" to consistently contradictory orders, and then walking over the hill to his next master as this one dies. Tony's toad-man, sticking to walls and popping free, somewhere in the castle, every time there was a loud noise. It was such a vibrant cast, held together by the Master whose face we never quite saw, the huge fresnel lens magnifying his eating, or a respirator and goggles obscuring him. It made me have no regrets whatsoever when Luissa was torn to shreds by the mob of her own design rather than destroying Master myself.

Again, playing the game strategically is the same as role-playing well; the rules support your character completely. The repurcussions of doing Master's bidding are an increase in Self-Loathing; the repercussions of failure are minimal. And the ways you find to inflict your love on others in order to make your character feel better (and therefore more effective), all makes precisely the story you want to tell.

I'd never played Baron Munchausen before, but boy, I want to play again. There are some interesting techniques we discerned, and I'll say them here: whoever goes last benefits from the Caesar Effect. In order to reduce this, other players should stay in character, associating their position at the table with their stories, so that when the coins fall from other characters at the end, you've been surreptitiously building on your story while the last person had to wait hir turn. Excellently, that means that the best way to play is to be absolutely serious about the matter of character integrity. Oh, and it should be played at a pub. Play with Scajawea coins and the winner buys drinks with the proceeds.

Discernment was a neat game, and I really liked the stories we came up with to challenge the Subject, but there are some quirks with the bidding process, in particular that the Subject lacks motivation to bid at all. If sHe had a reason to spend resources, bluffing might be an option, but it would not automatically be the best one. As long as the Subject has bought into the bidding process, though, the game's really neat. I'd like to see it fleshed out and I thank Mike for introducing me to some intruiguing design concepts. If'n ya don't mind, I'll steal some o' them.

I like the co-GM aspect of TSoY, whereby all players grant bonus dice to each other in a pivotal conflict and players have a direct way to judge if they're following experience-worthy behaviors. It's a game that's well worth learning, and Clinton's a ball to play with. I only regret not playing Dogs with him.

And speaking of Dogs: Eric, you can change genre, world setting, magic powers, weapons, or whatever at will, but you absolutely must follow the formula of the game for creating towns. Play it straight a couple of times and you'll understand why. As long as your Amber characters are dealing with a society breaking down due to the interactions of the individuals therein, it should be cool.

Conspiracy of Shadows was a ball and I loved the characters. The surly owner of the caravanserai, the Priest who had lost his faith so completely he'd rather claw his way through the snow with his fingernails than pray, and the farmer thirsting for class justice. The point that made the game for me was the decision - Tim's, if I recall - that one of us had committed the assassination in question, and all of us racing to figure out if our own characters were the best culprit. It's like Clue, only fun.

I played more games, but it's getting late and I want to post to my LiveJournal about the experience.

Most of all, I'd like to thank you all for being excellent comrades in a sea of bad fashion choices and bad-smelling hair. And I'd like to thank you for ennabling me in the tragic character bender I seem to be on. Thank you for designing systems and playing with me while I am hated by God, drink myself to death and enlightenment over the death of my lover, betray the very man I support in a grab for power, and be torn to pieces by a mob driven mad by my beauty.

Quote from: RobNJAnd Vince, man, I simultaneously loved and hated your character (in character).  I couldn't get a handle on him!

I kept finding myself basing my trust of Vincent's character on extenuating circumstances, like 'Is he counting on all of us knowing that he's not a bastard in real life?' I couldn't figure out if you were playing a clever lie, or if you were playing straight. Your character wound up being represented by total doubt and confusion by all the other players, I think.

... hey, here's an interesting Social Contract thing I just realized: I wound up feeling like your character wouldn't screw over my character because you wouldn't screw over me. It came down to our relationship, not the relationship of our characters. Curious that, in the absence of a way to discern a character's motives, it comes down to that.

Quote from: nikola

I kept finding myself basing my trust of Vincent's character on extenuating circumstances...

I wasn't sure if he was the one pure ronin or the most cunning bastard of us all and I figured my character who grew up in the emperor's court just wouldn't trust that kind of purity.

Vince: "Judd, did you know that I was going to attack the Mountain Witch as soon as you released me from service?"

Me: "I didn't know, just seemed like the thing to do."

A fun night.  I drove home grinning.

This brings up a question. How familiar is everyone else with the genre? I pretty much swam in, drank, and breathed Kurosawa for a while, particularly while studying film.

If we're not all intimate with it, that says volumes about the quality of Tim's rules. If we are, it just says that the rules serve the story well when played by those who know the story. But I want to know which it is.

Quote from: nikolaThis brings up a question. How familiar is everyone else with the genre? I pretty much swam in, drank, and breathed Kurosawa for a while, particularly while studying film.

I definitely got the feeling you knew what you were talkinga bout.  In fact I meant to mention that.  You didn't come off pompous or tiresome like a lot of so-called Japanese culture experts in the gaming world.  You weren't desperate to impress upon us how much you knew.  You were folding it into the game and giving us stuff to work with.

On a 10 point scale, where 10 is a white guy who's lived in Japan since he learned how to talk and 1 is Toby Keith, I'd rate myself a 6 or so?  I feel like I know more than the average American about samurai, but don't trust most of what I "know".

I thought the Last Samurai was irritating, that's probably worth some cred. On the other hand I fell asleep once during Ran.

Seriously, no clue. I could count the samurai movies I've seen on one hand and I've never read a book.

I'm a big Beat Takeshi fan, though, come to think of it. I won't have learned about samurai from his flicks, but I will have learned about loyalty, tragedy, and bonding through sudden violence.

-Vincent

Quote from: nikolaThis brings up a question. How familiar is everyone else with the genre? I pretty much swam in, drank, and breathed Kurosawa for a while, particularly while studying film.

If we're not all intimate with it, that says volumes about the quality of Tim's rules. If we are, it just says that the rules serve the story well when played by those who know the story. But I want to know which it is.

I've only seen the bigs really (7 Samurai, Yojimbo and a few others).  In fact, it is funny, but I am more familiar with the Portuegese interactions with Japan than the Samurai culture as a whole.  However, I am really familiar with westerns and noir films so it isn't much of a leap (and I want to play in a Maltese Falcon Mountain Witch game).

Keith

Quote from: RobNJI definitely got the feeling you knew what you were talkinga bout.  In fact I meant to mention that.  You didn't come off pompous or tiresome like a lot of so-called Japanese culture experts in the gaming world.  You weren't desperate to impress upon us how much you knew.

Well, thanks, Rob. Given the company, I would have enjoyed Legend of the Five Rings, but I would have been way snottier about it. It's not like I'm not a snot about it, I just forgot to be snotty because I liked the players, and game (in both rules and implimentation) so much.

QuoteYou were folding it into the game and giving us stuff to work with.

I was really unsure how much of the stuff was deliberate on Tim's part and how much was just his knowing the genre really well and unintentionally but meaningfully using the symbolism of the culture. I'm still not sure. I suspect shy waters run deep.

QuoteOn a 10 point scale, where 10 is a white guy who's lived in Japan since he learned how to talk and 1 is Toby Keith...

Had to look that one up. Then I recognized him from a video I saw and laughed at a couple of weeks ago. He is to Johnny Cash what Green Day are to Siouxie and the Banshees.

QuoteI'd rate myself a 6 or so?  I feel like I know more than the average American about samurai, but don't trust most of what I "know".

If you've seen Seven Samurai and Yojimbo, and have read any large part of Lone Wolf and Cub or Vagabond, you pretty much know what I do in terms of idiom. You pretty much know what anyone does. Those are all damn fine art and everything else that's good is a direct descendant of those.

See? There's the snot.

Quote from: nikolaIf you've seen Seven Samurai and Yojimbo, and have read any large part of Lone Wolf and Cub or Vagabond, you pretty much know what I do in terms of idiom. You pretty much know what anyone does. Those are all damn fine art and everything else that's good is a direct descendant of those.

See? There's the snot.

Now I will give you reason to snot:  I love Green Day :) (though, for street cred, I also own albums by the Toy Dolls, the Sex Pistols, the Ramones, the Damned, etc.).

Actually, on-topic, I do not meet any of those tests.  I've read a few pages of Lone Wolf and Cub, and know a lot about Seven Samurai despite never having seen it.

Quote from: RobNJI've read a few pages of Lone Wolf and Cub, and know a lot about Seven Samurai despite never having seen it.

It will tell you everything you need to know about running - and maybe writing - an RPG with an ensemble cast of characters with different motivations. Dare I say, you could run it with Mountain Witch? I don't see why not, but I'd really like to hear Tim's answer to that.

What's really exciting to me is that when I think, 'Can this be run with Mountain Witch?' I think, 'I really want to play Katsushiro, the boy, because he falls in love, freaks out in war, has his idol killed in front of him, and becomes wise by the end.'

When I think, 'Can it be run with GURPS?' I think, 'Why would I ever want to play Katushiro, the boy? He's got no discernable skills, he freaks out, and he gets the townspeople angry at the samurai because he can't keep it in his pants. He's a liability.'

Ha! HA HA!

Quote from: Bob GoatI've only seen the bigs really (7 Samurai, Yojimbo and a few others).  In fact, it is funny, but I am more familiar with the Portuegese interactions with Japan than the Samurai culture as a whole.  However, I am really familiar with westerns and noir films so it isn't much of a leap (and I want to play in a Maltese Falcon Mountain Witch game).

Yeah, it helps a lot that Westerns and Samurai movies cross-polinated so much. I don't really follow the Noir aspect, though. Tell me about that?