Three cheers to imaginative gamist players!

[lev_lafayette]

In the thread http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=14200&highlight=">Early roleplaying and the interpretation of scripture, I just made the comparison between simulation priests, narrative wizards and gamist mystics.

The basic point was that the latter group, usually players rather than GMs, are actually very useful in terms of game design and a lot of fun to have around. They push the limits of a game system, they drive a gm's narrative to places they weren't quite expecting and often they save the players from being stuck in a real pickle.

The last point I think is quite important. Other players really appreciated having an imaginative gamist player around who could "turn the rules" on the GM and find a way out of difficult circumstances. A GM may not have liked their plot unravelling at a rate of knots at the time, but ultimately the gamist cleverness added to the game.

Imaginative gamist players inspired, and continue to inspire, better game design and more elaborate and adaptable plots.

OK, now here's the contentious hypothetical. A trend against "rule systems", leaving too much to GM (or even player) fiat and narrative, may mean that the gamists are being pushed into a corner. Could that mean that games could become less fun?

[Bankuei]

Hi lev,

I don't think there is a real trend against rules systems.  There's a few folks who are very vocal in standing against rules systems, and they have a few game options that pretty much fulfill that role, ranging from the various freeform stuff, to the light moderated rules on forum rpgs, to formal stuff like FUDGE.

Most everything else is pretty set on rules, even if it's not a giant amount of them.  Consider even stuff like the Pool,  Primetime Adventures, or even the Nighttime Animals Save the World.  All of these games have pretty simple rules, but they only work if you follow the rules put forth.

It may be more worthwhile to ask if any purpose is served in even taking the time to worry about gamism if your game isn't supposed to support it.  A great deal of the rules cruft we get from a lot of Sim games and the power/control advice in GM sections comes from the fear of Gamism.  

Personally, I like Gamist play as much as Narrativist play, and I'm sad to see that few games are willing to jump right into it.  Is it really worthwhile for gamist folks to try to trick out a game system that isn't serving them?  It's rather like adding nitrous tanks to an ice cream truck.

Chris

(edited for clarity)

[komradebob]

Most everything else is pretty set on rules, even if it's not a giant amount of them. Consider even stuff like the Pool, Primetime Adventures, or even the Nighttime Animals Save the World. All of these games have pretty simple rules, but they only work if you follow the rules put forth.

Not to get too off topic, but may I plug my favorite gamist rules lite game,
Chris Engle's Matrix Game. Heavy player on player gamist challenge, lots of ability for players to alter the SIS, and a GM that really is mostly a referee...

I'm not entirely sure that it counts as an rpg, but it sure is a related animal...

[S'mon]

OK, now here's the contentious hypothetical. A trend against "rule systems", leaving too much to GM (or even player) fiat and narrative, may mean that the gamists are being pushed into a corner. Could that mean that games could become less fun?

I don't think Gamist play requires an afversarial relationship with the GM, or the illusion that GM and players are on a level playing field, bound by the same rules (for fear of GM 'bias' against the players, presumably).  For my next 3e D&D campaign that I'm prepping, I want it to have a Gamist focus but to avoid these 3e accretions.  Player achievement in Gamism comes from beating the scenario/setting/environment, not from beating the GM.  I plan to use a lot more GM fiat than in my last 3e game, with the focus on creating an enjoyable experience for the (hopefully) step-on-up players.  I also want there to be lots of exciting drama and an interesting world to explore, whether or not that counts as Nar or Sim Drift I don't much care.  One bias I definitely want to avoid though is favouring certain players over others.  Certain demanding players (both actively demanding and passive-aggressive) badly wounded my last D&D campaign, I must resolve to be much fairer in adjudicating the different desires and expectations of the players and integrating them with my own, and be very careful about letting charismatic players get what they want at everyone else's expense.

-Simon

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Lev,

Have you played much Tunnels & Trolls? I suggest that it offers quite a bit for folks who like the kind of Gamism you're talking about.

A search here at the Actual Play forum, perhaps specifying "tunnels" or something like that, would yield some fun reading.

Best,
Ron

[lev_lafayette]

Hi Lev,

Have you played much Tunnels & Trolls? I suggest that it offers quite a bit for folks who like the kind of Gamism you're talking about.

I played a bit of T&T in the early 80s. I actually preferred the spin-off Monsters! Monsters! instead, simply for the setting.

From my experience T&T didn't support the gamism that I was referring to. It became unbalanced too quickly.  Still, maybe if I gave it another look...