Spooked By Canon

[Lord_Steelhand]

Let me say upfront that I enjoy the idea of HeroQuest.  The rules seem to be very empowering and I have no trouble with the weaker guy who has the stronger Strong value issue, etc.

What scares me about HQ - indeed, what keeps me from running it tomorrow - is that there is so much canon.  Furthermore, I have no idea from the books how truly canon things are.  Some of the examples in the game are clearly taken with the idea of "YGMV".  The game rules encourage coming up with new stuff that is mysterious even to those who created it.  What does "Knows the Secret of Three Cut Silk" mean?  Maybe no one knows until it becomes and issue - not the GM, not the PC.

Now, don't get me wrong - I don't care if my game is canon and that others on the net, when hearing of my games, will say "yep, that is how Glorantha is."  My concern is that my concept of what is right from the game needs to be the same as the players, or we won't function very well.

Allow me to step aside from HQ for a sec to tell you what I mean.  I love Talislanta - but I have run it once in all the time it has existed.  Why?  I don't feel like I can do justice to the milieu.  There is just too much to know for a GM to just pick it up and go without study, study, study.  I don't have time for that and enjoy improvisation too much to be chained to "page 13 says...".  That is unfair to my players, who have expectations that what they know about the milieu can be counted on as well.

Another example is Nobilis.  I have a fellow player who insists that every one of those cute quotes is canon and that every example given is part of canon and that certain powers are already taken, etc.  Too dug into it all...

My solution is this – I LOVE Men of the Sea.  I think I am going to use Teshnos or the China-like area of Glorantha in that book and just make it all up.  That way, I will feel freer to add my two cents in without feeling like I am messing up someone else's painting.

Neurotic?  Maybe.  I just don't feel right trying to convert game worlds like that with my own inventions.  I hate having too much restrictive canon and HQ is lousy with it.  Too bad it is such an engaging system.  Maybe once mythic Russia comes out, I will grab it.

Lord Steelhand
"My real name is also Judd...wink wink)

[Bryan_T]

First a general comment: despite the amount of canon out there, almost nobody knows most of it.  For that matter, even the lunar empire, pretty much the driving force behind much of the conflicts going on in Glorantha, is still only very lightly defined (although the upcoming Imperial Lunar Handbook 2 will help shed some more light on it)

The thing about Glorantha is that a LOT of it is defined more by hints than by strict rules.  Almost no two people will take those hints the exact same way.  That is part is why there is so much discussion about it after all of these years--there is no one right answer.  

So my first piece of advice is really to just jump in, the water is surprisingly comfortable after the first shock.

Second, you wrote:

Maybe once mythic Russia comes out, I will grab it.

Another option, which should also be out sometime this year I think, might be Trader Princes.  

Conflict of interest disclaimer--I helped give some ideas and some feedback to the guy who wrote it, so of course I think it is pretty cool.

It is set in a previously undeveloped portion of Glorantha, with deliberately very little reference to the "canon." It is set in a previously obscure piece of coast between Esrolia and Seshnela, so it refers to both of those, but both as distant places where you really don't need to know more than is in the HQ core rules.  Everything else is pretty much stand alone.  

The intent behind it was very much to be a "safe" entry point into Glorantha, for people like you who are put off by the amount of canon.

Regards;

Bryan

[Lord_Steelhand]

Another option, which should also be out sometime this year I think, might be Trader Princes.

Thanks for the reply!  I am sure I am just being a big weenie...

The above sounds like what I am looking for.  Men of the sea was cool, too - because I love sailing ships, etc.  The idea of playing Wuxia-like Chineese corsairs is really floating my boat (I know, uggg!)

I sometimes feel a well-developed game world is something of a curse.  I adore games that leave the setting open to massive interpretation and maybe HeroQuest is more of that than it seems at first.  If taken as hints, it certainly opens the frontier a bit more.

...maybe less weenie would work better for me.

[joshua neff]

Okay, here are my feelings about Glorantha canon: screw it.

Seriously, the idea of trying to fit things in with Greg Stafford or Peter Metcalfe or anyone absolutely chafes my hide. If you can get your hands on a copy of Runequest, do it and look at the canon there. You've got two or three pages of a description of the history of Glorantha, leading up to and beyond the Hero Wars. You've got a paragraph about "This is a Bronze Age world, more like Conan or Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser than King Arthur or Carolingian romances." You've got three cults in the back, and you've got 2 maps (Glorantha and Dragon Pass & Prax). That's all.

Personally, I think the HeroQuest book has everything you need to play in Glorantha, and all that jive about this cult or this obscure character that pops up in supplements or on-line is just added fuel for your own imaginations. Make up your own cults and practices and saints and wizardry schools. Make up your own location details.

But you're not worried about other people, you're worried about your group. Okay.

My suggestion? Give your players as much color as possible, but without lots of codified "this is what Glorantha has to be like." Give them a myth or two, something that sums up what is cool about Glorantha. Or simply be upfront and say, "Hey, this is what I think if nifty about the setting." Give them firing pins for their imagination, the same as you would do for any game. As long as everyone is having fun, forget about canon. And let them know that the only "canon" is what you guys create in play.

That's what I would do, anyway.

[Lord_Steelhand]

My suggestion? Give your players as much color as possible, but without lots of codified "this is what Glorantha has to be like."

Right on, Joshua.  This is sort of what I was thinking anyway, along with a "this is a rich world, but it isn't stone-hewn from the books".  I think, as long as that is understood, my players will be fine with it.

I am the first to admit that this tendancy is a neurosis over "messing up" someone' elses hard work in making a setting.  I am so used to providing the color on my side - and I love that part of GMing - that having lots of canonical color already present feels like wearing someone's hand me down shoes.

Thanks for the good advice!

[Bret Gillan]

I think it's just a matter of communication with the players. I used to run campaigns in the canon-laden World of Darkness, and before each campaign I'd say, "The basic concepts of vampiric/werewolfic/magic existance are the same, but assume nothing about the history of your kind, significant NPCs, or the setting." Then, during character creation, I encourage them to define NPCs and aspects of the setting to their liking. The latter has rarely happened, but I think this can be more easily encouraged with HQ's character creation rules.

Just communicate with your players and be prepared for possible misunderstandings, as well as the possibility that you may have to fudge your vision towards the players so as to foster a shared vision of the setting.

[joshua neff]

I am the first to admit that this tendancy is a neurosis over "messing up" someone' elses hard work in making a setting.

I completely understand, because I've had the same worries before. But I relaxed, I remembered that one of the things I love about the show Doctor Who is it's carefree attitude towards its own canon, and I reread lots of Marvel Comics from the '60s and early '70s. Canon? Whatever, man. Fun, fun, fun!

I'm absolutely fascinated by a lot of the Glorantha minutiae. But my patience for arguing about it, debating it, has waned to the point where I simply don't care. It's all just grist for the mill, and anything I don't want to use gets thrown out.

The next time I run any Glorantha games will almost certainly be for people who have little to no knowledge of Glorantha. Which is great, because we can start with a clean slate. I want our Glorantha to vary wildly.

[Bankuei]

Hi Judd,

I think the only time to worry about canon is if you are either writing something that might be "official" or if you are going to be playiing with folks who are hardcore Gloranthaphiles.  As far as using any canon ideas for inspiration, I can only recommend Glorantha:Introduction to the Hero Wars or any of the reprints of the old stuff from the 70's and early 80's RQ stuff(Cults of Terror, Cults of Prax, etc.).  Personally, I find the older stuff more rich and easier to work with, but Glorantha: Intro book has the widest overview.

Otherwise- just make it up.  That's how Glorantha came into being anyway :)

Chris

[Mandacaru]

What they all said.

But also, another personalized version of what they all said: about nine months ago I was in exactly the same boat. But I just went for it and even placed my game right in the heart and time of canon-territory, with all the same fears. To boot, I even had one or two self-confessed Gloranthan anoraks along for the ride.

As suggested above, though, I think the key is to build it all with the players. Any "mistakes" are then mutual and, as has been discussed here before if you hunt the thread down, can be ignored, incorporated as your canon or rewritten with few problems (because of YGMV).

Finally, if you have picked up on MotS as something you can work with, perhaps feeding in any greater nautical or orientalist interest you might have (which is where I would be scared of falling down) then go for it. And...check out the recent slew of ideas and sources for how to run seafaring in Glorantha on the HW-RPG yahoo group.

Good luck with it and report back....

Sam.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

These two old threads might be interesting reading to augment this one:
Where to begin?
Glorantha: I'm confused ...

Best,
Ron

[nellist]

I am also spooked by canon, but mostly because I like Glorantha so much. I really enjoy reading and researching Glorantha, aside from any role playing possibilites. I don't know if this is one of the reasons I am not specifically keen on the Sartar vs. Lunar Empire setting - there really is so much stuff out there that it would be impossible to include it all - it almost certainly has contradictions within even the published official works (IM0). There is too much going on for anyone to keep up with.

It is something that used to give me a slightly uneasy feeling about other peoples games set in Pavis, for example,  where I'd be thinking "no, that cannot have happened because someone else plundered Balastor's Barracks already". Obviously silly and irrational.

My solution was to use historical periods. This meant I could indulge my love of Gloranthan esoterica, but also make up considerable chunks myself, and justify apparent contradictions by stating that "that is what history thinks but this is what really happened". Most of Glorantha has some snippet of history somewhere but you can be fairly confident that that reference is probably all that there is relating to your specific period. There are plenty of intriguing periods - I've run the Blood Kings War, 14th century Balazar, 9th century Prax - I've considered  11th Century Kingdom of Ignorance,  the Settlement of the Elamle peninsula, the Inhuman Occupation. I'm working on a Balastor's Barracks scenario (ie when the trolls first attacked). I'm really inspired by Men of the Sea to have players take on the role of Dormal and his chums on the Seven Voyages (classic scenario arc if you ask me - more exciting than the Hero Wars).  Some of the obscure Unfinished Works have some great references for Pelorian escapades -various mob actions in the Empire of Dara Happa, for example.  

The plus side is that if you, as Narrator, spend a bit of time checking out facts then Glorantha anoraks (like myself) will be intrigued by the lack of a Red Moon, non-existence of Sartar, dry farmland where the Upoland Marsh is going to be etc.

Keith

[Ian Cooper]

A key thing to remember about Glorantha is that people have different types of involvement with it. Only one of those is via HeroQuest. A lot of the people posting about canon our engaging with Glorantha by speculation. Another might be fiction. Just remember that if you are playing HeroQuest focus on Glorantha as a game setting. Tell your players that you are going to share your intepretation, and take their where it dovetails with that. In addition remember:

YGMV means that Glorantha is defined in such broad strokes that you will have to fill in the details and your intepretation is just as good as anyone elses.
Greg's attitude to his own writing seems to be change the canon if it no longer fits with his vision so you should feel afraid to do the same.
Do not be tyrannized by the canonista with their tyranny of Generally Agreed Glorantha. Sure use fan material if it helps you, but feel free to present your own interpretation. Your ideas are just as good and valid. If it ain't in print it ain't valid. Publish and be damned.
Part for me of the joy of Hero Wars/HeroQuest was the liberation of realising I was supposed to make my own stuff up and not worry about the real answer.
Finally, in case it helps, as someone who has written hints and references in Dragon Pass, most of the time even the authors do not know what the unexplained references refer to. They are just there for you to riff off, and doing so is the purpose of them.[/list:u]

[Mike Holmes]

Hey Judd,

I pondered on whether or not to post. But I'll just say this. If you're finding all of the "you can do with it what you want" cold comfort in any way, realize that you're not alone. I have never felt comfortable enough with the Glorantha canon to actually play HQ in it. I play in an entirely different setting because I can't bring myself to approach Glorantha.

Perhaps it's irrational, perhaps it's not, I think that's irrellevant. I do think it's a pretty normal thing to be put off by that much canon, however. So here's me just saying that there are other options. Conversion isn't an easy process, but I've found it to be very fun. So, worst case, if you can't get into Glorantha, post here and we'll work up an alternate place for you to play in.

One thing that I haven't seen yet, interestingly, is for somebody to convert a homebrew world. Hell, you could do this and call it part of canon, saying that you're playing "on the other side of Glorantha" or something. But somewhere that's a really blank slate.

Mike