[As Above, So Below] Thematic Questions

[Tymen]

As Above, So Below

"Bless the Lord, ye His angels, that excel in strength, that do His commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His word."
Psalm 103:20

You are God's Will made manifest, sent to walk among the dark places, to watch over Mankind, and to protect the Free Will which God has granted them. But can you touch the darkness without, in turn, being touched by it.

Can you walk among the mortals without succumbing to Temptation? Can you stand against the Fallen, your former brethren, without succumbing to their fate?

Know this, as you gaze into the mirror, the Fallen gaze out at you.

"He who fights with Monsters might take care,
Lest he thereby become a Monster.
And if You gaze for long into an Abyss,
The Abyss gazes also into You."

Friedrich Nietzche
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Does the above cut to the heart of what the game is about,
does it speak enough to the game's theme that I can build on it?
Would the above written on the back cover of a game book, get
you to open it and read it?

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Can one who exists in the realm of moral absolutism (Good vs. Evil, Black vs. White) maintain their moral integrity in a world of moral relativism (Shades of Gray)?

In other words can you maintain your Faith, while surrounded by Faithlessness?

Other ideas that can be explored:
Can Love redeem you?
Is Redemption worth it?
Is the Road to Hell paved in Good Intentions?
On matters of Faith, Is it better to question or follow blindly?
--------------------------

Any other ideas on what can be explored within the game?
Are there questions that you would add to the list above?

[NN]

You have to inject doubt into the Angels' belief system.

Otherwise I dont see how Angels, who know God exists and is Good etc., can really be tempted(?) into moral relativism. Surely "Gray" areas are only possible for those lacking faith?

(Lucifer wasnt a moral relativist - he decided he was right and God wrong.)

[Tymen]

Thanks for the suggestion, I thought about it and this is what came to mind.

I didn't want to have Doubt as a part of the system. I wanted doubt to be the thing that players bring with them to the game.

Angels begin the game, to a certain degree pure and noble. As the game progresses, they either Ascend or Descend.

As Above, So Below in my estimation is a game about choices. Players choose which dirction there characters go in, up or down. Choice is in the players hands. What they do, quite literally, becomes who they are.

Doubt comes into when an Angel is asked to take the soul of a loving mother, cradling her innocent daughter in her hands.

It comes when God tells you to allow your Flock and Faithful to be fall beneath the Tsunami that is headed for the Thai coast.

It comes when he calls on you to do one hundred deeds, each bloodier than the one before.

Angels always have one wing dipped in blood.

Angels start pure, but it is the Angel's choices that decide their fate

I don't think a mechanic would help with that aspect of the game.

Hopefully, this helps you see where I'm coming from.

[NN]

Angels begin the game, to a certain degree pure and noble. As the game progresses, they either Ascend or Descend.

Can they move sideways?

[Eero Tuovinen]

Heh, strange that nobody's referenced Shreyas' ponderings on a heaven game. Or I didn't notice it, possibly. Anyway, I should think that something there would ring a bell...

[Valamir]

I don't think a mechanic would help with that aspect of the game.

Hopefully, this helps you see where I'm coming from.

A doubt mechanic...no I agree.  Not really necessary.

But...IMO...everything you just wrote in the above post should be a mechanic.

Basically the only important choices (relative to ascendence / descendence) comes when the angel is caught between a rock and a hardplace.  Choose to do what's "right" vs. Choose to do God's will...which is by definition "right".  If both of those are the same thing...playing it out is pointless.  That's the sort of mudane stuff that angels do all the time.  Just as you wouldn't roleplay out your Accountant character going to work and spend any of time on his "day at the office" so you won't want to spend any time on the angel's "day at the office".

Only when there is something there...a difficult choice to make should the events even be played out.  I'd build that right into the rules if it isn't already.  Basically hard scene frame right from one dilema to the next.  It may be worthwhile to scope out Prime Time Adventures for scene framing and varying character issue importance from session to session.

That said...there might be some justification for a "weariness" mechanic.  When the angels are constantly forced to make hard choice after hard choice there could be a mechanic akin to Stress in Inspectres that needs to be refreshed from time to time or the angel becomes more vulnerable to corruption.

[Tymen]

Angels begin the game, to a certain degree pure and noble. As the game progresses, they either Ascend or Descend.

Can they move sideways?

At this point in the game, I have Angels able to stay in balance. I'm thinking of changing that, I might have it be as you gain Virtue, you lose Sin and vice versa.

Heh, strange that nobody's referenced Shreyas' ponderings on a heaven game. Or I didn't notice it, possibly. Anyway, I should think that something there would ring a bell...

I had read that thread through a few months ago and forgotten about it.
I've reread it and after digesting it for awhile. I like the last ideas come up with, but I'm looking for a more immediate game. Less about the abstract impact of Angels on the whole of creation, more in keeping with their impact on humanity, or in specific humans, and on how they themselves are affected by the work they do. To be a little ironic, I'm looking for something a little more concrete in my Angels game.

I don't think a mechanic would help with that aspect of the game.

Hopefully, this helps you see where I'm coming from.

A doubt mechanic...no I agree.  Not really necessary.

But...IMO...everything you just wrote in the above post should be a mechanic.

Basically the only important choices (relative to ascendence / descendence) comes when the angel is caught between a rock and a hardplace.  Choose to do what's "right" vs. Choose to do God's will...which is by definition "right".  If both of those are the same thing...playing it out is pointless.  That's the sort of mudane stuff that angels do all the time.  Just as you wouldn't roleplay out your Accountant character going to work and spend any of time on his "day at the office" so you won't want to spend any time on the angel's "day at the office".

Only when there is something there...a difficult choice to make should the events even be played out.  I'd build that right into the rules if it isn't already.  Basically hard scene frame right from one dilema to the next.  It may be worthwhile to scope out Prime Time Adventures for scene framing and varying character issue importance from session to session.

That said...there might be some justification for a "weariness" mechanic.  When the angels are constantly forced to make hard choice after hard choice there could be a mechanic akin to Stress in Inspectres that needs to be refreshed from time to time or the angel becomes more vulnerable to corruption.

Before I get into it, did my explanation of the dice mechanic in the earlier thread make sense?

Narration
Narration of a scene is figured out by bidding, you bid either your extra points from the die roll or Purity (Corruption). A person may choose to opt out of bidding on the narration.

Narration may be bought into after the initial bidding. But only after the first outcome has been decided.

As the Narrator tells the story, others may choose to use their Successes (6s or 7s) or Purity (Corruption) to add/interject elements to the story.
To hinder or help. The Narrator may opt to counter this with Successes or Corruption points. The narrator's control ends when a new conflict (or an old conflict resurfaces). Thus, a new or extended conflict phase has begun and another roll is called for. This may be brought about by the narrator themselves or by another player (or The Devil's Advocate). They do so by introducing the conflict as an element into the story.

Players (or The Devil's Advocate) may choose to save some of their successes and use them as bonus dies for the next conflict. However, they must explain what the benefit derives from. (It must tie back into the earlier narrative.

I think the above sets the tone for what you are saying. But part of the game is also about why you are doing something. You can even as an Angel, do the right things for the wrong reasons. It's why one of the 4 core stats is Will. It's that dichotomy of Love versus Will. Why you are doing something as an Angel is as important as what you are doing.

I have Prime Time Adventures and I like what I've read so far. I'll have to check out the hard framing section.

As far as varying character issue importance from session to session, I have a couple of ways within the current game set-up to deal with that.

One is if the Devil's Advocate chooses to concede the narration to the player, he is rolling against, it allows him to interrupt and introduce a scene at a later time. This scene could involve the backplot/uberplot of the story or it could involve introducing a dilemma to a player who hasn't been as active in the game. (Giving a player more face time.)

Other players may also introduce dilemmas to other player's Angels,
When a player does this they are awarded a point of corruption.

As Corruption is the fuel that allows the player to have some control over their story and gives them time in centre stage.

Corruption: May only be used to help your self.
In other words, you may only spend Corruption points to further your own goals within the context of game play. May only be used during your own narration.

Corruption only becomes available to use in this way, when you shift from fulfilling your duty or the wants and needs of others (following Love) into the fulfillment of your own wants and needs (following Will).

As soon as Corruption is used in this way, no Purity points may come into play, either your own or others.

Examples – Spending for Corruption

Spend Corruption to gain partial control over the narrative to interject/add description and/or coincidence to improve your own chances to succeed in your current objectives.

Spend a Corruption to change an NPC's stated action or State of Mind during game play to alter the outcome of a narrative.

Caveat: Use of corruption in this way, can come back to bite you on the ass. Any good outcome that comes from the use of corruption points, can and will be undermined in the long run.

Also, corruption begets corruption. Expect a corruption award (penalty?) at the end of the session if this happens.

Corruption may also be used in two other ways.

During the session, you may use corruption to create a dilemma for your Angel to deal with in order to explore something of interest to you in game. These points go to the Devil's Advocate and he uses them during the scene of the dilemma. No Purity may be obtained/gained until the Player/Character deals with the dilemma.

And/or

At the end of a session, a player may choose to spend all of his corruption points and to work with the GM to create an issue that the character must deal with in the next session. These points go to the Devil's Advocate and he uses them during the scene of the issue. Again no Purity may be obtained/gained until the issue is dealt with.

As for a weariness mechanic, that could be interesting. I'll have to ruminate on that for awhile and see what I come up with.

Thanks for the input.

[NN]

Basically the only important choices (relative to ascendence / descendence) comes when the angel is caught between a rock and a hardplace.  Choose to do what's "right" vs. Choose to do God's will...which is by definition "right".  If both of those are the same thing...playing it out is pointless.  That's the sort of mudane stuff that angels do all the time.  Just as you wouldn't roleplay out your Accountant character going to work and spend any of time on his "day at the office" so you won't want to spend any time on the angel's "day at the office".

I didnt mean Doubt as a mechanic, but Doubt in the Setting. I can see the point in a game about hard moral choices. I just dont think that type of game is compatible with an 'objective' cosmology.

[Tymen]

Basically the only important choices (relative to ascendence / descendence) comes when the angel is caught between a rock and a hardplace.  Choose to do what's "right" vs. Choose to do God's will...which is by definition "right".  If both of those are the same thing...playing it out is pointless.  That's the sort of mudane stuff that angels do all the time.  Just as you wouldn't roleplay out your Accountant character going to work and spend any of time on his "day at the office" so you won't want to spend any time on the angel's "day at the office".

I didnt mean Doubt as a mechanic, but Doubt in the Setting. I can see the point in a game about hard moral choices. I just dont think that type of game is compatible with an 'objective' cosmology.

Actually doubt is to a certain degree built into the setting. About 1/3 of the Angels have fallen. That has to raise some questions among the Angels, but that is what the players bring to the table. The doubt should rise from them making those hard choices and deciding how to and why they perform the tasks they are given.

The world of the Angels is very different from the world of the mortals.

The Angels begin as "Objective" Observers sent to oversee things upon Earth that must fall into the Plan. That doesn't mean they need to stay that way. They have responsibilities and a flock to watch over, they have the Faithful to aid in their endeavors. All of these things mean they have a connection to the Earth and those upon it, that is where the seeds of doubt come into it.

(Also, I don't think Lucifer fell because he thought he was right and God was wrong. Lucifer's sin was Pride and he felt that he could take God's place upon the throne.)

I want the cosmology to be fairly straight-forward, it is meant to be an intriguing backdrop against which we tell the stories of the Angels choices made on Earth.

[lumpley]

Tymen, you mentioned City of Angels, have you seen Wings of Desire?

If you haven't, rent it tonight, no kidding.

-Vincent

[Tymen]

Tymen, you mentioned City of Angels, have you seen Wings of Desire?

If you haven't, rent it tonight, no kidding.

-Vincent

I haven't, but I've always wanted to. Wim Wenders has always been on my need to see foreign director list.

The Prophecy is also a big influence.

In literature,
To Reign in Hell by Brust.
Paradise Lost by Milton
Dante's Divine Comedy
(Especially the image of the Angel coming into Hell and ordering the Gates opened for Dante and Virgil to pass through into the depths of Hell).

That's some of them.

But I'll be sure to check out Wings of Desire.

As for City of Angels, it was more the image of the Angels standing all on the beach and watching the sunrise that caught my attention. The movie was okay, but the way it dealt with Angels was interesting. The images it invoked were what grabbed me.

[Tymen]

Basically the only important choices (relative to ascendence / descendence) comes when the angel is caught between a rock and a hardplace.  Choose to do what's "right" vs. Choose to do God's will...which is by definition "right".  If both of those are the same thing...playing it out is pointless.  That's the sort of mudane stuff that angels do all the time.  Just as you wouldn't roleplay out your Accountant character going to work and spend any of time on his "day at the office" so you won't want to spend any time on the angel's "day at the office".

I didnt mean Doubt as a mechanic, but Doubt in the Setting. I can see the point in a game about hard moral choices. I just dont think that type of game is compatible with an 'objective' cosmology.

Actually doubt is to a certain degree built into the setting. About 1/3 of the Angels have fallen. That has to raise some questions among the Angels, but that is what the players bring to the table. The doubt should rise from them making those hard choices and deciding how to and why they perform the tasks they are given.

The world of the Angels is very different from the world of the mortals.

<snip>

I want the cosmology to be fairly straight-forward, it is meant to be an intriguing backdrop against which we tell the stories of the Angels choices made on Earth.

I think I've been reading a little too much Milton. Love his stuff, but sometimes pompous comes to mind.

I didn't mean to get all iron-fisted. What I'm aiming for, but haven't written up yet, is the idea that the Devil's Advocate and the players work out what they want their cosmology to be like, before they start playing.

I will of course, include a cosmology which I would like to play with in the book, but it will be an example of one such taht can be used as a background. How much you want to invest into it will be up to those who play the game. At least, that's where my thoughts lay now.

[darrick]

hey, a few things...

1.  As Above so below.  cool sounding name and philosophy which is why i clicked on the post in the first place.  however, i take "as above so below" to be synonymous with Magic theory, Occult Practices, Hermeticism, even Satanism.  originally, the next line was "...as below so above" which means that if men are selfish, evil etc. then the gods or higher entities are too.

2.  is that a popular trend right now - to suggest a setting or parameters but leave things very open?  i'm new to this type of "advanced" role-playing, but if i had bought a mainstream RPG or supplement and they told me to pretty much do what i wanted and fill in the details, i'd find it off-putting.  yeah, i pretty much personalize settings and and change details, but i think the game's creator should come with a fixed world and let me worry about if i think anything needs to be altered or "vagued up".  how can a creator give me confident details at all if so much of it is free flowing?

3.   going back to the first post, i would like to see a cosmological/religous setting to be a little less hard-line christian and a little more darker.  maybe that's the Empire of Satanis in my talking, but perhaps "god" is more neutral or evil than everyone thinks?  anyway, that is my own personal bias.

thanks, Darrick

[Valamir]

I didn't mean to get all iron-fisted. What I'm aiming for, but haven't written up yet, is the idea that the Devil's Advocate and the players work out what they want their cosmology to be like, before they start playing.

I will of course, include a cosmology which I would like to play with in the book, but it will be an example of one such taht can be used as a background. How much you want to invest into it will be up to those who play the game. At least, that's where my thoughts lay now.

I'd take a different approach actually.  I'd make the game very focused on the cosmology you'd like to play and tie it pretty tightly to that.  If players want to stretch the cosmology in another direction, they'll do that on their own.  It isn't necessary for you to leave things loose or vague for that to happen.

Consider Dogs in the Vineyard...one of the most tightly rules-tied-to-setting games around.  Yet players have no trouble envisioning Dogs in the X variations that have the same theme with different setting details.

YMMV, OC

[Tymen]

hey, a few things...

1.  As Above so below.  cool sounding name and philosophy which is why i clicked on the post in the first place.  however, i take "as above so below" to be synonymous with Magic theory, Occult Practices, Hermeticism, even Satanism.  originally, the next line was "...as below so above" which means that if men are selfish, evil etc. then the gods or higher entities are too.

I know it came from Aleister Crowley, but it suited my purpose. And in the other it did caused you to check it out, which was as much it's purpose as the reasoning below.

Know this, as you gaze into the mirror, the Fallen gaze out at you.

"He who fights with Monsters might take care,
Lest he thereby become a Monster.
And if You gaze for long into an Abyss,
The Abyss gazes also into You."

The title as I was picturing it, is all about how Angels and the Fallen are reflections of each other, flip sides of the coin,  in other words not so different from each other. They all have a purpose and all must follow it.

This is reflected in the game, Angels have pure white wings (when they want to). The Fallen have wings tinged with red, the redder, the more corrupt they are. Lucifer's wings are so blood red, as to look black.
The Fallen, like the other Angels, are so beautiful to behold it hurts the eyes of a mortal to look upon them.

The game, when it is done will have rules to run the Fallen as well.
So the title was approprite for that as well.

thanks, Darrick

And Thank You for the feedback, Derrick.

Tymen