HQ Midnight - New Bangs Thread

[Kerstin Schmidt]

I'm not saying she's not having fun, but worrying that you might not be having fun when you're having fun...well that's just wierd. No?

Not weird, no.  It's a reaction to incoherence and its possible dangers.  

The D&D game in which Lucy and I first met vacillated between near-hardcore gamist and world simulation.  Playing "in character" and writing PC journals was encouraged and (in a minor way) rewarded with "roleplaying XP" and "story hour XP".  The GM often complained that certain players were regarding their PCs as mere playing pieces - yet every time things got interesting (once in every few sessions), it was the playing piece players that won.  

In my game recently there have been signals that suggested a similar incoherence might be at work.  No wonder Lucy was worrying she might run into familiar frustrations.  Thanks to our discussions here I've been able to realise why and about what she was worrying and mention it, so she's reassured now.  

Apari's player (can we just call him Bob or something?)...

Man, could you have said that about three threads earlier? :) Thanks.  I was stuck in this weird place where somehow I couldn't stop waiting for him to drop by and introduce himself.  (Yeah and that actually is weird.)

The player's name is Ravi.

I agree that he's probably pushing for gamist play simply because that's what he enjoys.  

I wish I'd realised that terms to avoid included "story" - now you say it, yes absolutely, it was an obstacle to communication between Ravi and me.  

Your analysis about situation and premise is brilliant.  I was thinking about ways to get this unwanted bit of plot over and done with, but you're right of course.  If I see it as situation, I'm sure Ravi and I can still find cool uses for it, by making it the basis for something that interests him.  What that will be I'm still not sure, but knowing what to avoid is a first step...  

Your further analysis about male and female stories and male and female groups has a seductive rhetoric, but two problems, one terminological and one regarding assumptions about "male" and "female" play preferences in our group.  

First, killing things and being powerful doesn't make a "male story" in Ron Edwards's sense, not any more than caring about your kids would make a "female story".  

Here's the quotes:
"Male story model:  This story model is based on the idea that people must often trade off among priorities regarding whom they will help."  (Sx&S 28)  
"Female story model:  This story model is based on the idea that sexuality and reproduction are a source of power." (Sx&S 30)
Ron states in in the intro before those definitions that his story models aren't modeled on Jungian archetypes, neither are they expressions of typical male vs female interests necessarily.  

Killing things, power and offspring can (but don't have to) come into either type of story.  In fact power is mentioned in the definition of the female story model (one of the facets of which is attracting sex partners btw, see table on p. 31), while offspring is at the centre of the conflict "zones" for the male story model on p. 28.  

So no, I wasn't providing particularly "female story" material to Ravi.  I was providing conflicts inside and between the character's zones as in a male story:  help his wife regain her babies, which may mean working with her hated sister? Back barbarian Dorns or potentially treacherous snow elves?

Just to be clear, you are completely right that Ravi isn't interested in the family conflict, no argument from me here.  I'm talking about your "technical" analysis using the "male" and "female" story models and why it doesn't shed further light on Ravi's preferences as it stands.  

What may well be true is that the whole family conflict feels too "traditionally female" to Ravi - to invent a term for what I think you were driving at.  ("Traditionally male" would be killing things and building power, for this purpose.)  I can emphasise with Ravi on that, in fact it's pretty much the way I feel.  When he told me his backstory and insisted to bring it into play by taking relationships only to those ghosts, my first thought was, "Bollywood."  (I'm so not into Bollywood films.)

Which brings me to my second point.  

I dunno how you make the leap from "most of the players are female" to "this group prefers female-interest themes in play".  Not true for our group.  "Traditionally female" themes just don't engage me in stories.  At all.  Thanks to HQ and R-maps, and your suggestions, I'm beginning to learn how relationships (and more specifically blood and sex ties) add an important dynamic to a game - but as themes as such they don't get me excited.  To the extent where the notion of people making me play "their male game" is absurd, I'd choose a male game over a "traditionally female interest" game any day.  I think Lucy is more between the two extremes than I am (so, it was a good idea that you got me all those marriage proposals to include in the game, I'd never have come up with all that on my own), but I know from experience that she enjoys the "traditionally male" thing of killing things and being powerful as well.

So... Ravi may see himself as "the minority" in our group and may feel that he has to ward himself against us, but I can't see how that has much to do with the way we play.  Unless it's all those marriage proposals flying around, which after all were another man's idea. :-)


All that said, one reason Ravi is still a bit hard to read for me is that he himself doesn't know what he likes - he tends to have "anything except X" preferences rather specific ones, and he doesn't like to talk about things he hasn't enjoyed because he doesn't want to feel like he's complaining. (He isn't of course, but I haven't yet managed to convince him that I want and need his feedback, the negative bits as well as the positive bits.)

That sort of thing. Again, hidden Male keyword. Once he realizes that he hasn't taken "Awesome Lover" watch him buy that at the very next opportunity.

Female story! Female story! ;-p

Well, what did you tell him? That it's OK to say exactly what he feels? That, in fact, you encourage him to do so? Did you tell him point blank that you want him to play using his OOC knowledge? Not to "abuse" the game, but to help make the story better? Not to decide on how Apari reacts to Roland based on the character sheet, but on which decision will lead to the most interesting outcome for the players (meaning to use OOC knowledge to make the decision).

Yes to all.

Did you tell him that one of your favorite moments in play was when he came into one of Katrin's scenes just at the right time? That you want him to do that constantly?

Maybe.  Meaning yes I did tell him that, and no I'm not sure it got through to him yet. Meaning I'll have to reinforce this kind of feedback more.

Lots of reading on this one in a series of threads about the game called "The Pool" about "Wallowing at the bottom off the Pool."

I couldn't find them, neither in the Random Order Creations forum nor by searching bottom and pool.  Definitely related to the Pool, yes?

[Mike Holmes]

I'm not saying she's not having fun, but worrying that you might not be having fun when you're having fun...well that's just wierd. No?

Not weird, no.  It's a reaction to incoherence and its possible dangers.

I see what you're saying. But the only response can be to ask, "Are you having fun? Then stop worrying!" :-)

The player's name is Ravi.

Halleluja. I thought he might be persued by the mob or something, and needed to be protected. ;-)

Your analysis about situation and premise is brilliant.

Thanks The Forge in general. I'm just reiterating theory that was developed here long ago. I can't take credit.

First, killing things and being powerful doesn't make a "male story" in Ron Edwards's sense, not any more than caring about your kids would make a "female story".  

I was being a tad facetious. But...

Killing things, power and offspring can (but don't have to) come into either type of story.  In fact power is mentioned in the definition of the female story model (one of the facets of which is attracting sex partners btw, see table on p. 31), while offspring is at the centre of the conflict "zones" for the male story model on p. 28.

See, violence is an option (to paraphrase Orlanth)! ;-) I wasn't saying it's the only option. Just what a lot of guys go for in adventure stuff. The "relationship" stuff can be seen as relatively "mushy." Some people say that's an "immature" POV, but, well, it's how lots of guys feel (including myself a lot of times - less so, however, since I've become a father). Ravi, potentially, amongst them.

Remember, the typical bachelor fantasy is to get the girl, but not to have to marry her, or have a family. Reproduction without responsibility. So, the term I'd use isn't "Traditionally Female," but Anti-Bachelor. :-)

Back barbarian Dorns or potentially treacherous snow elves?

Right, this one's good. You didn't see me criticizing this stuff.

When he told me his backstory and insisted to bring it into play by taking relationships only to those ghosts, my first thought was, "Bollywood."  (I'm so not into Bollywood films.)

Well, you saw his taking these relationships as a request for premise there. Again, he didn't realize that it would be this sort of statement, nor, apparently did he intend to make such a statement. Which is probably because he was expecting a different sort of game.

Which brings me to my second point.  

"Traditionally female" themes just don't engage me in stories.  At all.  Thanks to HQ and R-maps, and your suggestions, I'm beginning to learn how relationships (and more specifically blood and sex ties) add an important dynamic to a game - but as themes as such they don't get me excited.  To the extent where the notion of people making me play "their male game" is absurd, I'd choose a male game over a "traditionally female interest" game any day.

Well, now you're contradicting yourself. You say that, yes, you were throwing some "traditionally female" stuff at Apari, but you don't like that sort of stuff? So why were you throwing it at him then?

I think we're getting caught up in self-perception and terms here. All I'm saying is that Ravi might be feeling that the game is too "girly" for him. Even if that perception is not really true, from an objective POV. His comments about how he sees the game seem to support this. Worried about marriage - didn't he say something like it was like a romance novel or something? Maybe that's all unwarranted. But that doesn't change his perception.

I'm just saying throw him some really macho action so he can feel better about participating in this game.

So... Ravi may see himself as "the minority" in our group and may feel that he has to ward himself against us, but I can't see how that has much to do with the way we play.  Unless it's all those marriage proposals flying around, which after all were another man's idea. :-)

Yup, I'm willing to admit that I made a mistake if you are. That is, you accepted the ideas knowing Ravi far, far better than I do. :-)

All that said, one reason Ravi is still a bit hard to read for me is that he himself doesn't know what he likes - he tends to have "anything except X" preferences rather specific ones, and he doesn't like to talk about things he hasn't enjoyed because he doesn't want to feel like he's complaining. (He isn't of course, but I haven't yet managed to convince him that I want and need his feedback, the negative bits as well as the positive bits.)

That sort of thing. Again, hidden Male keyword. Once he realizes that he hasn't taken "Awesome Lover" watch him buy that at the very next opportunity.

Female story! Female story! ;-p

Male ego, male ego!

Well, what did you tell him? ...

Yes to all.

Well, alrighty then. We'll have to wait for another session to see if it took, however. Right?

I couldn't find them, neither in the Random Order Creations forum nor by searching bottom and pool.  Definitely related to the Pool, yes?

There was a report of play (probably in actual play) of The Pool where players ended up out of pool dice, and couldn't seem to recover. There was some question as to whether this was a fault with the system, or if it was just good theme. After all was said and done (and me creating a system to "fix" the "problem") it was generally thought that it might actually be a feature of the system, not a bug. Or at least that "wallowing" wasn't something that would automatically happen. More a function of player choice. Anyhow, generally what was pointed out was that thematically interesting decisions were always in abundance when one was wallowing. Even if the characters didn't have the ability to actually succeed at many things they chose to attempt.

Mike

[Kerstin Schmidt]

The player's name is Ravi.

Halleluja. I thought he might be persued by the mob or something, and needed to be protected.

That too, of course.  You didn't think I'd give you his real name now, did you? ;-)

I was being a tad facetious.

Ha! For once I win an argument about game theory, and what does the man have to say to that?  "I was being facetious."  Nice try, Mr. Holmes.  Nice try.  

See, violence is an option (to paraphrase Orlanth)! ;-) I wasn't saying it's the only option. Just what a lot of guys go for in adventure stuff.

Um, Mike. This may be a bit of a shock now.  But...  A lot of girls go for the violent option too.  

So, the term I'd use isn't "Traditionally Female," but Anti-Bachelor. :-)

LOL.

And what when the character is female? Anti-Spinster doesn't quite cut it.  Although all those NPC men running after Katrin can probably safely be referred to as Anti-Bachelors... Yeah ok, I'll buy it.  It works both ways.  Only different.

Well, now you're contradicting yourself. You say that, yes, you were throwing some "traditionally female" stuff at Apari, but you don't like that sort of stuff? So why were you throwing it at him then?

Not one of my brightest moments ever?

I'm just saying throw him some really macho action so he can feel better about participating in this game.

This of course is important. (Seriously.  I agree with that.  He's been enjoying himself playing the cool customer in those situations and not doing the obvious macho thing - but yeah, he likes to have macho-action situations, definitely.)

Yup, I'm willing to admit that I made a mistake if you are.

No!  No way!  All mistakes are mine, give 'em back now! Mine I say!

(Of course I made a mistake.  And of course you didn't.  You were making cool suggestions;  deciding whether to use them is my responsibility - but at least in Lucy's case they have worked wonderfully well already.  So.)

[Kerstin Schmidt]

And when he came up with the idea of Apari travelling back in time to save his wife, he immediately said that of course Apari hadn't thought of that yet, and that of course he as the player wouldn't mind if this quest doesn't come up until 50 years or so further down the line (i.e. outside the scope of our campaign). We'll see what he does when he gets offered a chance... Although I'll certainly not force it on him.

This is, of course, a heroquest to the realm of memory, where, no doubt, the soul of his wife is trapped.

Thread-hopping ... (quote drawn from the actual play thread)

Too tired to make much sense anymore tonight, just one comment for now:  

My entire concept of the Veil as containing otherworlds, or severed slivers of them, or echoes of them, is based on people's memories and dead souls waiting around, so both Ravi's idea and your interpretation (realm of memory) fits brilliantly with our previous play.

[Mike Holmes]

Exactly what I was thinking.

At some point when others are messing around with the veil, make it clear somehow (without being pointed about it) that one can access the past and make it real in the future again by questing in the veil for memories and bringing them back to the "mundane" world. Then also have the war about to start or somesuch at home, and have him have to decide between his current real world responsibilities, and going chasing after shades.

Too cool. BTW, how old is Apari? How old do elves get in Midnight?

Mike

[Kerstin Schmidt]

Then also have the war about to start or somesuch at home, and have him have to decide between his current real world responsibilities, and going chasing after shades.

Right now he'd choose real-world responsibilities over his shades every time. ("The scenario" over his PC's personal goals.)   Unless both options look like they may result in him helping the world fight Izrador.  Something like, Apari gets a chance to destroy the Master Mirror (a suicide mission) - or to go deal with his shades, and gain help to destroy a Night King or two if successful.  
Or a choice between winning a greater victory but accepting that elves will die out (they haven't been producing children anymore in the last century, which was the starting point for Ravi's idea about his wife being pregnant with twins), or doing a smaller deed but retrieving hope of a future for the elves.  
In fact a combination of the above, if I can work out how.

BTW, how old is Apari? How old do elves get in Midnight?

Apari is one hundred twenty or so - still a youngster.  

In theory he could have memories from the time before Izrador's armies overran the continent (a century ago).  But Ravi's idea is (or used to be, might be worth checking back with him now we've switched modes) that elves remain in the infant stage for decades.  

In any case he's had a bit of a sheltered youth (in one sense) because the jungle elves as a people aren't directly involved fighting the Shadow.  They are pretty isolated and isolationist in their jungle, and their ancient enemies are hordes of demons that got loose in some earlier age and aren't under Izrador's control, nor in fact allied with him.  


(Yeah I know. :-)  I need more demons to show up.  I'm working on it. )


The details of how old elves get in MN are slightly tricky.  Canon material doesn't give age tables for races, which seems to indicate that D&D ages apply by default.  Then again the book states that the elven high queen Aradiel has been on the throne for over 8,200 years now, but goes on to say that even the "long-lived elves" find that hard to believe.  

(Nice, eh? All sorts of reasons I can think of why Aradiel is holding up this long. Very typical of Midnight, it either gets me all excited with the ideas it sparks, or has me tearing my hair out because I want some reliable information on something and all it gives me is contradictory, if evocative, stuff. Actually more and more of the former now that I'm using HQ, which is actually able to handle all those contradictions and half-consistent bits of dramatic potential.)


In our game I went with D&D default rules because that's what Ravi wanted and he was the only one interested in playing elves.  Adult at 110 (human equivalent 15), normal maximum age 750.

[Kerstin Schmidt]

Notes for regional NPCs on R-map

I currently have four main groups in the region - Dorns and Sarcosans, snow elves, and orcs (some of whom are Izrador's followers, and the Ice Fangs currently dealing with the elves).  


Dorns


Skyrfell Pike:  

Roland Redguard, Lord of the Pike, self-styled King of Dorns, Iodor's old rival:  Wants to be acknowledged King of Dorns and bring Dornland back to its previous warlike glory. His son's loyalty.

Prince Reifels, Roland's son, friend (of sorts) to Charankh:  Wants to rebuild Dornland and shape its capital into a centre of enlightenment and learning.

Roland's general Olec, by birth a retainer of the Norfell family, hates the Ladies of Norfell: Wants power.  Be free of the "yoke of the Norfells".

Each of them, naturally, wants the Dornish Crown.


The Allins, historically retainers of the Baden family:

Veddia, Roland's mistress and perhaps previously Iodor's:  Wants a safe position of her own and to outrank Marja, Iodor's wife.  

Tam, Veddia's little brother, Katrin's fiancé:  Wants Katrin to himself. Family loyalty to Veddia.


Baden's Bluff:

(Need tie between either or both of Katrin's parents, a close mesh of old mutual favours and obligations most likely:  the Badens live a cover as well-off Church-approved merchants, the Norfells are pirates and smugglers on the Pellurian Sea.)  

Iodor Baden, Katrin's father, Roland's old rival; currently on the brink of being betrayed and arrested:  Wants to maintain his cover, and serve the name of Baden until the end.  To see Katrin again before he dies.  (Could be Arrenu helping Iodor out.)

Marja, Iodor's wife and Katrin's mother, an expert seeming collborator; hates Veddia who she is convinced has had an affair with Iodor: Wants peace in her own home, to counteract the many daily lies and fears of her life, and the horrors beyond the Badens' relatively protected sphere.  Never to see an Allin, or hear the name Allin again.  

Nes & Tara Norfell, the Ladies of Norfell (House of Pirate Princes), regents for their sickly and feeble-brained child nephew Leo:  Want to uphold the name of their House.  Find a way to preserve the line.  Expose Olec as the traitor he is and have their revenge on him.  


Sarcosans

Arrenu, former Sarcosan Freerider, had an affair with Katrin, now undead;  currently Jahzir's emissary:  Wants release from the Hunger.  Sarcosan glory restored.

Night King Jahzir, Sword of Shadow: Wants to destroy Sunulael.  Become King of Erenland at last.  

Night King Sunulael, the undead Priest of Shadow: Wants all of Aryth pliable in his own cold claw.  


Orcs

(Need ties between some or all of these four.)

Ghost of Charankh, former Ice Fang priestess(shamaness?): Wants recognition of the plight of the orcs.  Revenge for her own sufferings and violent death.

General Grial, commander of the Northern Arm of the offensive, an army hardliner, feared strategist and one of Sunulael's favourites: Wants Caradul in his grip.

Skoon, a person of some rank in the Northern Offensive and secretly a follower of the White Mother: Wants to spread the word of the faith, undermine the Shadow Church's hold and awaken orcs to the realisation that in the end they, too, will be used and then discarded by Izrador.

Priestess(Shamaness?) Sojjok, a member of the Ice Fang delegation to Autilar, has (had?) and affair with the Blood of Autilar:  Wants to protect her secret.  Keep the treaty with the snow elves, which she sees as the only chance for her tribe to escape destruction by Izrador's armies.


Snow elves

Uilia, Snow (head mage) of Autilar: Wants Nollorn safe.  Then to defend Autilar and the snow elves as long as she can.

The tracker Nollorn, Uilia's son:Wants to bring Katrin and Reifels to Autilar.  

The Blood (warleader) of Autilar: Wants to defend Autilar and Uilia to his last breath. To regain Uilia's respect.  

Esne, Tree of Autilar, (half-?)sister to Ardherin and Latar: Wants orcs out of Autilar. Now.  Wants Ardherin dead and forgotten.

Latar the Herbalist, (half-?)brother to Esne and Ardherin: Wants to pacify Esne.  Wants Ardherin saved from evil (through a memory quest).  

Night King Ardherin, formerly High Quees Aradiel's consort, now Sorcerer of Shadow, controller of demons: Wants Aradiel in his power, hall his rivals dead and all the demons of Aryth at his beck and call.  
(As far as anyone in our group knows, A. is a snow elf. I'd like him to have jungle elf blood though, at least partly, to make him more interesting for Ravi.  That would also explain Ardherin's passion for controlling demons, which is how Izrador trapped and turned him in the first place.  Ardherin's appearance has changed since he became a Night King, to a very unnatural white (ugh, the Michael Jackson of elves... now there's a scary thought), which is why he's widely believed to be a snow elf - but he might well have been dark bron and tattoed before.)