Terms: 'High' vs 'Low' Fantasy

[Andrew Norris]

I kinda have to admit that last post was pretty abrasive.  Sorry.  I just had to get it out of my system since I'm so sick and tired of the same retreaded garbage.

Heh, that was what I was trying to say (and failed) in that PM I sent you. When I first read your post I was thinking "This guy sounds a little too angry," but then when I thought about it, hell, you were articulating exactly the frustration that I've felt in the past. Actually, a lot of us have felt that. :)

[M. J. Young]

Personally I think any distinction between the two nowadays is trite and irrelevant, seeing as how everyone and their mother is copying Tolkien and they all know it.

Forgive me for being a bit offended at this. I'm looking over our published Multiverser worlds, and I don't see anything at all that is copying Tolkien. NagaWorld is a fantasy world that is completely unlike anything else I've seen. Tristan's Labyrinth may be a dungeon crawl, but it's not really a fantasy dungeon crawl. The Dancing Princess is based on a fairy tale, so it's as like Tolkien as any other fairy tale from which he got some of the flavor of his stories. Sherwood Forest is set in England and has an almost unnoticeable touch of magic, but it's got no orcs or anything. The population of Bah Ke'gehn--the most magical world we've published--and even the setting are so completely alien I can't really define them in a sentence. Prisoner of Zenda might be considered a fantasy adventure, but it's not magical and it's not Tolkienesque. The closest we've come to Tolkien is the forthcoming Orc Rising, which is a post-fantasy world in which magic is vanishing, primitive technology is on the rise, and the real issue is whether the elves, dwarfs, and humans are doing the right thing by enslaving the orcs and conquering their lands.

Apart from us, I think there have been quite a few fantasy games among the indies. Nighttime Animals Save the World seems like fantasy to me. Legends of Alyria is difficult to categorize, because it has a lot of pseudoscience behind it, but it's got strong supernatural good and evil in it expressed through magical powers, so I'd say it qualifies.

I'm inclined to think that the only way you can reach the conclusion that everyone's fantasy is like Tolkien is to start with the assumption that fantasy is defined as being like Tolkien. If you toss out your definition, you'll find there's quite a bit out here.

--M. J. Young

[John Kim]

Well I'm tired of it.  More indie games need to focus on fantasy settings NOT phagocitized by the d20 Plague.  High fantasy, low fantasy, medium-rare fantasy, Fantasy Island, who cares as long as it's GOOD, or at the very least, new?

I'm trying to think of all the production RPG settings that are classically fantastical without having to ride in Tolkien's wake.

Conan (as mentioned earlier)
Amber (great setting, horrible game)
Elric/Stormbringer (just barely unTolkien)
Pendragon (protoTolkien)
Dying Earth (one of the sexiest settings EVAR)
L5R (Not Tolkien just because he never visited Japan)
Glorantha

I know I'm missing a few, but you gotta admit that's a pretty short list, which must become much, MUCH longer.  Who's with me?

Well, I do think there is a glut of games which imitate the genre conventions of D&D (and I agree with Ron that it is more imitating D&D than it is imitating Tolkien).  On the other hand, no, I'm not with you.  

If I survey the games out there, fantasy -- even non-Tolkienesque fantasy -- is hardly a neglected genre among RPGs.  There are dozens of oriental fantasy games beside L5R; dozens of legendary/historical European RPGs besides Pendragon; and dozens more unusual fantasy worlds.  There are far, far more neglected genres among RPGs -- even extremely standard ones, like action/adventure, mystery stories, crime/heist stories, romance, high school drama, and children's fantasy (i.e. Oz, Narnia, etc.).

Edited to add:  Oops.  This is pretty off-topic.  Anyhow, I tend to agree with the TGotM that "high" vs "low" isn't very meaningful in itself.  I think it was originally conceived when fantasy was just getting established as a genre, where Tolkien was "high" and Howard was "low" -- but even at the time it was a shaky distinction.  There's just too many variables there and it isn't clear what "high" or "low" refer to any more.

[Domhnall]

I'll leave any debate concerning Tolkienesque gaming to the side.  

Concerning the terms, however, how distracting is it to readers for an author to title his paradigm "High" or "Low" fantasy while providing a definition of that term when some readers have different/opposite definitions of their own?  

But, it sounds like it's unavoidable.  Even here, say, on the issue of 'Realism' vs 'Plausibility', the rub is evidenced.  What I have learned to call 'Realism' is in contrast to what others (from their respective experiences) must label 'Plausibility'.  And letting go of terms is hard.

[Kat Miller]

Concerning the terms, however, how distracting is it to readers for an author to title his paradigm "High" or "Low" fantasy while providing a definition of that term when some readers have different/opposite definitions of their own?

As a reader who seeks out High fantasy its not really distracting, it helps with the sorting.  If a certain author claims his novel is "High Fantasy" I'll pick it up and I'm expecting lots of magic, hopes of wizardry or maybe modern urban setting with gods or fairies.  That may not be a technical definition of High Fantasy, but thats what I expect.


If its not there, but there is an intriguing teaser I may pick it up and briefly wonder why the author claimed it was high fantasy.  The High Fantasy label gets the book in my hands, but its the writing that will sell the book.

If same author has Wizardry or Urban Gods in his novel and has labeled his novel "Low Fantasy" I may over look the novel all together unless the cover is particularly striking.  (Striking art also puts a book in my hand)

If the book is just labled fantasy (no high or low) then I have to pick it up to sort for myself.


How important is it to your game that the term High/low Fantasy is used as opposed to just Fantasy?  What are you trying to say about your game that you were hoping High/Low Fantasy would convey?

-kat