Usage of 3D Art

[Lynn]

Almost all of the art I see in game books look like they are just ink illustrations or sometimes a painted color plate.

I work extensively in 3D (http://www.meshbox.com) and Ive wondered why more artwork in games dont utilize 3D, since models can be easily repurposed from one project to the next.

Any ideas? Is there something wrong with 3D art?

Thanks,

Lynn

[Trevis Martin]

Hey Lynn,

I'm an artist too in both traditional and digital media and I've given this kind of thing a lot of thought.  The issue, to my mind, is that traditional illustration media (or even digital media that look like traditional media) do not announce themselves to your perception like a poorly done 3D image does.  What I'm saying is that a lot of work that I have seen done with 3D programs (Poser, Bryce, Lightwave, what have you) looks like a computer was involved.  Looks like it so much that the first thing one thinks on looking at it is not 'Wow what a great, atmospheric peice of art' but 'Wow, that was done using a computer trying to imitate perceptual reality.'

Other media, and the way they're handled, add expression to an image.  Computer media can too, but oddly people seem obsessed with the amazing, almost photographic imitative qualities a computer can produce.

That said I have seen some amazing 3D generated art that does not fall into the trap I've mentioned above.  The thing is, why use 3D?  Its akin to building puppets and photographing them.  You can do it and be very effective, but you want to do it for the feel that gives to the work.

Many games are about fanatsy settings.  A drawn or painted image just 'feels' more right, because we've never experienced time periods like that as photographs.  Photorealistic images, computer or otherwise, might be more appropriate for modern settings.  The new World of Darkness core book uses some photographic work with great effectivness.  Similarly work that is completely generated through the use of a 3D program might work well for a game that focused on a sort of video game or animated type world.

There is also a question of efficiency.  You mention that its easy to repurpose models for  use in other illustrations.  That is one advantage. But consider for images that have several figures and background and other things the amount of time that goes into assembling the image in a 3d space, lighting it well and finally rendering it.  Many people who are plain 'old media' or at least '2D media' (I do a lot of illustration with my computer nowdays) can render that kind of complexity more easily in 2D than in three.

3D computer work is in the same spot photography was in 100 years ago.  It really hasn't found its own voice as a medium  yet, though many are working for it.

Around here it is thought by many that for roleplaying games "System does matter."  In other words the system you use affects the type of play that is produced.  This principle has been known in art for a long time as "Medium does matter"  The medium you choose affects the content of the work you produce.  It adds its own context to that of the subject matter in image.

Edit:
So is something wrong with 3D art?  I'd say no but the context it get used in needs to be appropriate for it to work.  Also the medium's general uncertainty about its own voice (and the fact that there are perhaps more 2D artists out there) probably contribute to its low appearance in RPG's so far.

best,

Trevis

[Michael S. Miller]

I don't think anything's wrong with 3D art per se. I'm actually anxious to use it on a game I've got on the back burner right now. One of the problems about 3D art, though, is that it doesn't really shine in B/W and grayscale, which is how most print RPGs are produced. The really cool 3D art I've seen is all stunning for its color and shading, which doesn't really translate as well to print.

But rest assured that I'll be sending you an e-mail once With Great Power... is done and I move on to my next project.

[daMoose_Neo]

It also depends on the structure and setup I'd suppose.
My CCG uses several pieces of 3D Artwork, buildings mostly, and you really can't tell- I have to remind myself on occasion ^_^
The modeler intentionally used cell-like qualities in laying out his shots to have them blend in well with my established artwork.

[jdagna]

For me, it's an aesthetic thing.  I just like 2D art.  I still play computer games from the 90's, back before they started using 3D engines because I simply prefer the look.  Maybe I'm just showing off the fact that I remember when Pac-Man was new and ground-breaking, but I'm still fairly young when you look at many game designers/publishers.  It takes a lot of work to make a 3D model that I will mistake for looking as good as a 2D model.

I think skill and resources is also a factor.  A really good 3D program costs $5000+ and you need a pretty top-end computer whereas you can do decent work in Photoshop ($700) on a 6-year-old computer.  Likewise, even the guys at Pixar can't make 3D images that look right to me, but I know several high school students who can whip out quality work in pencils and inks (or use Photoshop for a similar look).  In an industry where you're not going to sell a million copies, keeping these costs down is important.

[greyorm]

For me, the issue is skill. There are lots of 3D artists; and there are lots of bad (and mediocre) 3D artists. There are very few good 3D artists.

What do I mean by good? Well, this is what I've found so far in the 3D artist industry: they are unaware that photographic realism or posing do not make art.

Just as photographers know that simply snapping a picture does not make art, because there are considerations behind taking that specific photo: coloration, contrast, angle, composition, etc., modelers need to learn the same: that simply modeling does not art make.

Show me some 3D art, and I would consider using it. Unfortunately, I haven't seen very much of it around, and what I have seen is almost never suitable (content-wise) for the majority of RPGs.

[Lynn]

I agree, I see a lot of art that is a little too...mechanical. But on the other hand, post processing can really clean things up.

For example, does this look computer generated? Its a render with one tweak in Photoshop. I was trying to get a story book effect.

Lynn

[Trevis Martin]

Lynn,

They usually frown on images here in these forums.  You might want to just link to any images on your own site.

To your question.  Yes it does look computer generated.  The outlining filter that you used in photoshop is one that is pretty common.  It does take the 3D edge off of it. But the image does scream 'Done with a computer,' though not necessarily 'Done with a 3D program.' As a piece of incidental art in an RPG It wouldn't catch my attention.

Again if the aesthetic of the image fit the game, that is, the feel of the image  fit the feel of the game, it might work.  That is the key.  In the end the computer processing gives the image a feel that doesn't make sense for many RPG's.  It is possible to conceal that feel.  I routinely do it with illustration.  But many people don't bother to.

(Incidently I hate the term 'Computer generated', it doesn't make any more sense than saying a painting is 'Brush generated'.  We don't call an RPG computer generated b/c it was layed out with a computer.)

So, Lynn, is the purpose of your question that you want to somehow change your own work for the RPG small press (or big for that matter) market and you have the perception that it is unacceptable?   Do you have an RPG project you're working on?


best,

Trevis

[contracycle]

Well I have a completely different idea about why 3D art has not been used in RPG to date - RPG uses art badly.

Most RPg art is sort of loosely representative.  Random samples of items and people you might encounter, eclectic in style more often than not, and sometimes contradictory or culled from external sources.  What it does not do is actually use art purposefully except in the production of maps.

The kind of art in which you build structures and position models within them would be very well suited to developing physical spaces in game worlds.  Top down maps are actually terrible, IMO, for gaining any sense of place.  I would lipve to see 3D art used to really realise, and in a sense animate, a specific place intended to be used as a location in play.  Rather than a layout and some text description, actual pseudo-photo's would be marvellous I think.

As I say, I think the main reason is that art has hitherto been used in a loosely impressionist manner, rather than an actually expository manner.  But I also agree there are other limits, such as the frequency of self-published and small press stuff that simply cannot afford the print costs that would be required to really take advantage of the technology.  And even for the bigger companies, the decision to switch from generalised overviews, in the pursuit of player freedom, to specifically articulated locales, may be seen as dangerous.

What fascinates me about the prospect of this sort of thing is really, why not ship a CD with the containing with a thousand quality jpegs?  Or VRML-type locations?  I think this remains to be utilised.

[Lynn]

Lynn,

They usually frown on images here in these forums.  You might want to just link to any images on your own site.
Trevis

It is not embedded, but linked. I think you mean folks just want to see a link and click if they like, right?

To your question.  Yes it does look computer generated.  The outlining filter that you used in photoshop is one that is pretty common.  It does take the 3D edge off of it. But the image does scream 'Done with a computer,' though not necessarily 'Done with a 3D program.' As a piece of incidental art in an RPG It wouldn't catch my attention.

Yes, its a really common filter -- no, not a masterpiece :-)

Most of the artwork I see in RPGs seem incidental to me, with a few gems tossed in. I know that's a really broad generalization, but it seems like so much is ink illustration, with a few publishers doing really nice pieces all in color with "brushed media".

Again if the aesthetic of the image fit the game, that is, the feel of the image  fit the feel of the game, it might work.  That is the key.  In the end the computer processing gives the image a feel that doesn't make sense for many RPG's.  It is possible to conceal that feel.  I routinely do it with illustration.  But many people don't bother to.

(Incidently I hate the term 'Computer generated', it doesn't make any more sense than saying a painting is 'Brush generated'.  We don't call an RPG computer generated b/c it was layed out with a computer.)

So, Lynn, is the purpose of your question that you want to somehow change your own work for the RPG small press (or big for that matter) market and you have the perception that it is unacceptable?   Do you have an RPG project you're working on?

Yes, actually Im looking for ways to *conceal the computer*, and also figure out what measure of concealment is actually necessary -- Ive been plagued with doubts because Ive seen computer art that doesnt have a long life span visually.

Right now Im looking at this because my company already supplies some models and technology to (computer) game companies and Im interested in exploring the convergence of the computer and tabletop RPG markets.

Best,

Lynn

[Lynn]

What fascinates me about the prospect of this sort of thing is really, why not ship a CD with the containing with a thousand quality jpegs?  Or VRML-type locations?  I think this remains to be utilised.

I think its been tried a few times -- ive seen disks of stuff before in game stores, but it seems like they dont really sell -- like they really didnt have a purpose to begin with.

I like the idea of 3D because of the reuse of models.

best,

Lynn

[greyorm]

Lynn,

I will point this out since you express interest in how a person might take the computer out of the work created by the computer: a number of my art pieces have computer generated bases, and yet much of it that does, does not look as though it does. My main gallery can be found here, and the other galleries are linked to it at top: http://www.daegmorgan.net/gallery.php

There are a few obvious pieces, but I'm sure some of it would be surprising.

[contracycle]

I think its been tried a few times -- ive seen disks of stuff before in game stores, but it seems like they dont really sell -- like they really didnt have a purpose to begin with.

I didn't mention "sell" anywhere.

There's no way I will buy a disk of "stuff" allegedly related to an RPG without a very clear idea of what it contains.  So, it does not suprise me that to date these products have generally failed.  I mean something more like shipping a disk inside a hardcopy book, an image/clipart library that players are then expected to utilise in their games.  As you say, the products to date do not have much of a purpose; this is because they are trying to be stand-alone supplements to an existing product that in facts seldom needs any assistance.  My model is one in which a disk of specfic images is intended to accompany a specific text.

[ukgpublishing]

I use 3d art extensively in our Scifi products for a number of reasons.

The main reason however is that when I design a starship and want a frontal, top down, side view and wireframe model drawing the image once in 3d allows me to rotate easily and reduces the need to duplicate effort.

I agree that their is a of bad 3d art out their (hehe some off it may be mine) but used in the correct context, and not mixed with 2d traditional art, it can work.

[Lynn]

I use 3d art extensively in our Scifi products for a number of reasons.

The main reason however is that when I design a starship and want a frontal, top down, side view and wireframe model drawing the image once in 3d allows me to rotate easily and reduces the need to duplicate effort.

I agree that their is a of bad 3d art out their (hehe some off it may be mine) but used in the correct context, and not mixed with 2d traditional art, it can work.

Are you talking about the space ship in DWE-C Darkwing Class Escort? I think that makes lots of sense. And thats a nice looking model!

best,

Lynn