[DitV] Questions about Helping

[MCroft]

Helping seems to change the balance of power pretty significantly.  Can more than one person help the same see?  Can you help a see when you also have to see the same raise?  Can you mutually help each other?  

The GM looks at her dice (5,5,5,4,4,4) and the player's dice (9,1 and 9,1).  We're all all out of traits and relationships to bring in and no one has guns, so it's now or never.  

"Sister Penguin swings the 2 by 4 and whacks Brother Jake and Brother Elwood upside the head.  I raise 10."  

"OK, Brother Jake helps Brother Elwood by pushing down on his shoulder.  Elwood, here's a shiny '1'."

"Thank you Brother, I add it to my '9' and reverse the blow. And Brother Elwood helps Brother Jake by pushing down on his shoulder in return.  Jake, you may have my '1'."

"Why, thank you Brother Elwood.  I add it to my '9' and also reverse the blow.  I hit The Penguin high, raising with my one die, which is a '9'."

"Ok, she blocks with the 5 and 4).  Elwood, what's your raise?"

"Why, I hit The Penguin low, raising with my one die, which is also a '9'."  

"I cannot see that, Sister Penguin only has 8 left so she gives."  

Have Jake and Elwood's players just been tactically clever or did we violate or abuse the rules?

[Simon Kamber]

Now, I don't have the book, but I thought you couldn't turn the blow with two dice.

[MCroft]

Now, I don't have the book, but I thought you couldn't turn the blow with two dice.

That's right, which is what makes helping so helpful.  The die added by helping doesn't count for the recpient's fallout.  If you can see with one die plus a helping die, you've reversed the blow.  This is key to the question I'm raising, which turns what would be two individual "block or dodge" Sees into two "reversed blow" Sees.

[TonyLB]

Can you point us at some page numbers?  Because I don't honestly remember the helping rules a'tall.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

When you see in one, you turn the blow by adding it to your raise.

If someone's helping, you're not turning the blow because it's two dice, and you can only help someon once per Go.

On your friend's Go, you can give one of your dice to your friend's Raise. You have to have your character do something that would a) clearly and directly contribute to your friend's character's action, and b) be obviously something your character could do, given everything else going on. If anyone objects that your character's too busy or in the wrong part of the scene, you should graciously withdraw. Given that everybody thinks it's reasonable, though, just slide one of your dice over to go with your friend's.

On someone else's Go, you can give one of your dice to your friend's See. Again, you have to have your character do something both clearly helpful and clearly possible, and again if anyone objects, don't insist.

Either way, however, you've spent the die, and moreover, you've borrowed against your own next Raise. On your next Go, Raise with only one die.

You can't help two people between your Goes. If you could, you'd have to Raise with no dice, and that doesn't make any sense.

So the conflict might have gone something like this:

Penguin: 10! I whack you with the 5-pound ruler! Whack!

Jake: See with 10. I Put up my arms over my head! Ghaa! Ow! Ave Maria!

Elwood: Raise with 10! I grab Jake and take off down the stairs!

Penguin: I take the blow (5+4+4), you get away down the stairs... but I raise 4 and you see me glaring from the window as you shove Jake in the car. You know that look. Now you're on a mission from God.

[xenopulse]

MCroft is right, it's on page 45. Seeing with one die plus a helping die is a reversal.

It does not make sense to me that you can help each other when you both have to See--after all, it happens simultaneously.  But that's not explicit in the rules.

In any case, since you borrow against your next Raise, both of you would only be Raising with one die.  So it might be a good finishing move, but in the middle of the conflict, it'll come back to haunt you.

[MCroft]

Can you point us at some page numbers?  Because I don't honestly remember the helping rules a'tall.

Sure.  The section starts on page 44.

When you give a die to a frend for a See, it doesn't count against her for Fallout. In other words, if your friend is able to See with one die plus yours, that's a Reversal; with two dice plus yours, that's a Block or Dodge; with three dice plus yours, that's Taking the Blow for three dice of Fallout.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

I MA TEH STUPOD.

Yep, you're right. And it makes sense that way, too!

[MCroft]

I was just thinking on this with respect to timing and multiple helpers for Raises (as opposed to helping Sees, which I was thinking about earlier.

1: It can be used to drain the opponents die pool prior to her raise.  

2: If multiple helpers are allowed, you can concentrate the action and force some heinous fallout.  "I pull on the tug-o-war rope and Raise 20".  "I help her pull, now it's 30."  "We both do, too, now it's 50."  "OK, so now I have to see 50.  Wow, thanks for all the fallout..."