two WYRD proposals

[hardcoremoose]

Okay, so here's something I came up with last night while talking to Paul.

One of the real problems we've had with WYRD is that there has been little long-term adversity.  At best, the Tragic stuff the RG has thrown at us has provided temporary setbacks.  At worst, it's just color to adorn a scene.  That's not the RG's fault - it's the game's.

So this is what I was thinking:  When an RG narrates some kind of Tragic Trapping onto a player - say a severed arm - he (or the player of that Hero) makes a note of it, and a note of how many Tragic stones were spent on it.  That's it - there's no mechanical effect specified at that time.

When that Trapping becomes relevant to a given scene or Stanza, the RG can invoke it, specifying a mechanical disadvantage appropriate to the number of stones that was originally spent on it.  In this way, Tragic Trappings would be sort of mutable...

Example:  

A Hero has been saddled with the Tragic Trapping of Severed Arm, and two Tragic Stones were spent on that.  In a scene where the Hero has been sent skidding down a rocky cliff-face, the lack of an arm is going to be a serious detriment - the RG tells the player that his Driving Passion will be reduced by two when he attempts to grab onto something to slow his descent.

Later, the same Hero confronts the Viking warlord who cut off his arm.  This is a very different scene, and because of that, the RG rules that the Hero's Driving Passion is at +2 while fighting this enemy.

Of course, there are all sorts of other effects the RG could mandate, not just bonuses or penalties to a Hero's Passions.

I like the idea a lot.  It addresses one of Paul's concerns - that Trappings never really manifest as guiding influences in a scene in the same way Passions do - and it seems far less crunchy than the current method.  The only problem I have with it is that it only seems to apply to Tragic Trappings.  I don't like the idea of Heroic Trappings and Tragic Trappings using different rules - I like nice, symmetrical game design - so I'll have to consider the ramifications of appying this rule to all Trappings.

Anyone see any glaring problems or have any suggestions?

- Scott

[Valamir]

I love it Scott.  I'm thinking that a Trapping then is basically like a place to store stones, and the name of the Trapping is the "theme" for those stones.

In any scene you have a number of stones that you pulled fresh from your bag to narrate with.  However, you also have the stones that are saved inside your Trappings (i.e. they're trapped there...heh, heh).  The only difference is that the Trapped Stones must be narrated according to the theme of the Trapping.

Lets say you draw 6 stones, 4 Heroic and 2 Tragic.  The RG gets to use those 2 Tragic stones...but wait...you also have the Trapping of Severed Arm +2.  Those are Tragic Stones...so I get FOUR Tragic stones to narrate with, as long as 2 of tie some how to your lack of an arm.

I don't see why Heroic Trappings wouldn't work exactly the same way.  However, the difference between Heroic and Tragic Trappings is primarily in who gets the power to narrate them, the player or the RG.

As you noted above the RG could give a bonus for a Tragic Trapping in a particular situation.  Similiarly it would be possible for a player to narrate a Heroic Trapping in a "negative" way (I'm amazed at how much trouble players will willingly throw at themselves in this way).  The key here is who gets the power...and also the tone.  The narrative of a Tragic stone should be colored darker even if its mechanically a "bonus".

Is that kind of what you were thinking?

[hardcoremoose]

Ralph,

Yep, exactly.  That is 100% where I'm coming from.  And I love the way you express the mechanic - I'll probably just cut and paste it right into the new text (assuming it makes the playtesting cut, which I have a feeling it will).

In regards to the application of bonuses, I want to reiterate that bonuses are not necessarily good things (not since the implementation of the new rules since the start of this thread).  Drawing more stones, especially when you're near the bottom of your bag, means a quicker trip to Valhalla.  On occasion, players may want to reduce their Passions, just to eke out a few more draws in a cycle (and if I remember this correctly, one of our players did just that this past game session).

Tom, you out there?  How do you think this would work while RG'ing a game?  Like it?  Don't like it?

- Scott

[Mike Holmes]

Might I humbly suggest the following? Perhaps the trappings should actually trap the stones in question. Make a circle on some paper and label it severed arm. Take the two tragic stones and put them in the circle. There they stay until the arm is back, to be used in any casting where appropriate. Same for heroic trappings. This means that part of the characters fate is caught up in that trapping (very Zen, actually). It also means that he will burn out sooner if he does not get rid of his trappings at some point (they don't go back into the bag with the rest of the hoard), which is incentive to resolve them.

Mike

[hardcoremoose]

Mike,

There's something about your suggestion I like - it makes perfect thematic sense.  Paul has specifically talked about trapping stones at different times, although in a slightly different context, so it's something that people have an interest in.  

What I would worry about with your idea is the balance of stones in the purse.  Judging from our play, it wouldn't take long at all for a player's bag to be entirely devoid of Tragic stones.  As players, we spend alot of Heroic stones, but usually only on temporary things - a bonus for the scene, or to introduce a specific plot element into the game for a limited duration.  But the poor RG has to find ways to push us - the Tragic elements of the story have to carry-over into future scenes to really feel substantial.

of course, this may not be a problem.  So a Hero gets saddled with a permanent Tragic Trapping, giving him a disproportionate number of Heroic stones in the purse.  The incentive then exists to buy off that Trapping, especially if the RG uses it against him fairly ruthlessly, and the system delivers the means (by providing him with a greater proportion of Heroic stones at his disposal).

Hmmm...I'll have to give this some further consideration.  But the more I think on it, the more it makes sense that a permanent Trapping should be invested with permanent Tragic stones.

- Scott

[Valamir]

That does have a nice sense of completeness to it.

But you're right the RG would have to be fairly ruthless in using them because otherwise it would be an indirect benefit.

Some side effects to be aware of:

There would now be an even stronger motivation to make Trappings more broad so that those Trapped stones can be used more frequently.  This will be a motivator in any case, but now with the probability skewing effects as well it will be even more so.

It would put an added burden (perhaps a desireable one) on the RG to make sure that the Trappings are fairly significant (and not simply a convenient way to spend drawn stones) because the act of semi permenately removing them from the bag is mechanically very significant.

Also I have a feeling (and its obviously not supported by anything mroe than that), that it would make the game more...competitive (though that may not be precisely the word I want).  But it seems to me that players will be less accepting of a really cool Trapping and allow it to linger and be a defining part of their character there after because of the "shortening each cycle" effect.  It may become something of a game goal to figure out how to buy off the Trapping so the stones go back in the bag.  This is a problem if the mechanical goal of returning the stones to the bag is a more powerful motivator than the story goal of what the Trapping and buying it off actually means.

It would also mean more "book keeping" in the form of tracking multiple "pots" of stones instead of just 3.

In the end I'm not sure the answer can really be determined with out significant playtesting.  


One point in favor of *not* Trapping stones this way is that it makes Trappings more desireable.  You indicate that Heroic stones are generally spent towards modifiers and not for anything permanent.  Well if Buying a Heroic Trapping didn't permanently Trap stones from the bag, but rather added what amounts to ADDITIONAL Heroic Stones to spend, then there would be an added incentive to purchase them.  You may not need to reduce the cost of Trappings because this "Leverage" effect (as we call it in Universalis) would make the Trapping worth the cost.

[Silent Tamatama]

I want to just say that keeping the mechanics simple here is key IMO.  The Premise of Wyrd is meeting your fate.  How do you meet your fate?  
By working through your purse of tragic and heroic  stones. Therefore any new or revised mechanics should continue to reflect the Premise.

Can't say more must sleep.

[Mike Holmes]

I want to just say that keeping the mechanics simple here is key IMO.  The Premise of Wyrd is meeting your fate.  How do you meet your fate?  
By working through your purse of tragic and heroic  stones. Therefore any new or revised mechanics should continue to reflect the Premise.

I think this does stay with the Premise. I'm not sure about thematically, as I am not sure of how Norse Myth addresses trappings. But in lots of myth, a character's fate can be wrapped up in an object. It certainly is a zen principle that we do not own things but that instead they own us (hence the need to give up worldly possessions). If Moose doesn't use this idea in Wyrd, then I'm certainly going to go out and make an Eastern version called Karma, and include the concept.

Mechanically, it makes sense with fate. It represents the character's fate being tied to the object in question. There's a lot of ways to buy off trappings, too. Take, frex, Perseus' shield (not Norse, I know, but bear with me). It really only has one use, and after the character encounters medusa, tragic stones drawn for medusa should be used to buy off the positive trapping (recapture the trapped stones, returning them to your fate). This defined as the shield thwarting medusa's tragic gaze. After that, the shield has no real thematic use, and so is not worth any positive stones.

And there's nothing complicated about the system either, at least notheing more complicated than the original system. Simply place the stones like I said in a circle representing the trapping (I'd like to see NPCs as trappings; Dwarf shieldbearers, +3 Grasping Girlfriend, anyone?). Better yet would be to associate them with something symbolic of the trapping. Put them in a cup to represent a goblet. Put a miniature sword on them to represent the hero's magic sword. Paper for convenience, or when such an object is unavailable. Three by five cards with drawings would be good.

You may want to check the balance, as Ralph pointed out. For example, the double cost would be equivalent to one stone of a sort to trap another in a, well, trapping. So, if I want to make a two stone tragic trapping, I will need two tragic stones to be trapped, and two tragic stones to trap them there. I think that then balances well with Ralph's percieved advantages. And it balances against the cost of temporary advantages (come to think of it, this is exactly the same logic that I use in Universalis for situational bonuses versus permenant traits; no wonder I'm arguing for this.).

Mike