Syncretism in HQ

[James Holloway]

There always some ambiguity over whether it was a failure in an annual heroquest against the icespirits or just bad weather that caused the harvest to fail, much as there is with prayer and religious observance in the real world.

Well, but bad weather is caused by ice spirits anyway (or if you like, ice spirits are just bastards like that and will sometimes come after even if you did the Fuck Off You Ice Spirits quest right).

"Tooth decay is caused by three things: improper diet, lack of brushing, and bad fairies."

[Mike Holmes]

I disagree. I think that's just an incorrect POV. This is where the problems begin and end. If you take your POV, then you're correct, the Gloranthan's are all silly fools. If you take my POV then it's all internally consistent.

No, it is a correct point of view, at least according to multiple statements made on the topic.  If you WANT to add another gofds powers to your Pantheon, you heroquest to achieve this.

It's the lost item analogy again. If you lose something, you want it to be by the rock where you sat down, because that would be convenient. But you don't believe that if it's found there that it's your belief that placed it there, do you? It's there because that's where it dropped out.

The same thing is true in the godworld, spirit world, and essence planes. You can go looking for a truth that would be convenient to find. But the character only finds it if it's there, as far as he knows.

This is the primary axiom which we disagree about. You feel that Gloranthan people think that they change the gods. When everyone else is telling you that from our reading they do not think that they do any such thing.

You should actually be arguing about the biggest single case of a "change" that exists. That is, Sedenya's apotheosis. A group of folks questing co-ordinated with a bunch of people in the mundane world to raise one of their number to godhood at the same time as in the mundane world a huge chunk of earth was rippped from it forming a vast crater, the contents of which became the Red Moon.

Here you have the apparent creation of a god where there was none before. But, in fact, as we'll learn with ILH2 when it comes out, this is just the revelation of another entire otherworld. The god plane does not, in fact change at all in this case. Instead what you have is the revelation of an entire otherworld that was not known to exist previously, in which Sedenya has always reigned eternal over all.

The physical manifestations of that power as they project into the mundane world, the moon, and the glowline that represents it's magnifying effects on magic, merely are manifestations of the faith of those who follow Sedenya. Yes, in the mundane world your faith can change things, and change things drastically. That's magic.

again, a straw man set up to be knocked down.  In point of fact, as I often remark, I am *very* interested indeed in tyhe topics that Glorantha allegedly tackles, and my frustration arises from the fact the Glorantha tackels them poorly, inconsistently, and illogically.

Obviously you're interested in the topic, Gareth, or you wouldn't be here arguing. What you seem not to be interested in is exploring these subjects from a religious POV. You want a rationalist explanation for how these things work, when they don't work that way at all. They work logically, but from axioms that you see as non-rational.

For example, you think it's not rational to see something that is "proof" of, say, the primacy of one god over another, but then not to believe in that supremacy, it seems to me (please correct me if I'm wrong). When, in fact, if you believe that what your faith teaches you is more true than what you see, this is not the only logical conclusion.

Ad populum fallacy - the popularity of a position is not an indicator of its truth.  Please argue your case, not fallacies such as this.

Normally I'd agree with you. What I'm saying, however, is that this is an RPG, and what matters to most people playing it is not whether or not it makes sense on some deeply philosophical level, but whether or not they can have fun playing the game. That is, the question of the logic of the cosmology is actually largely an irrellevant one.

That's not saying that the logic is sound, or is not sound. Merely that, if there is some contradiction, then you're the only person that I know that's allowed it to ruin the enjoyment of the game. I could allow the fact that traveling faster than the speed of light brings up certain irreconcilable contradictions ruin my suspension of disbelief when I play sci-fi games that have it. But I don't, and few people do. In part because the subject is complex enough that, indeed, simply not looking closely at the problem can suffice to make things work out fine.

The point is that you're just like the one guy who can't play games with FTL. This doesn't mean that the game is fatally flawed for anyone other than you. This is why we have more than one RPG.

Actually, what I'd suggest is creating a RPG that looks at these faith matters from the POV that you find reasonable. I think that would make a much better counter-argument than any other you've made here. If people played it more claiming that it makes more sense to them, then you'd be pretty vindicated, I'd say.

Furthermore, it seems abundantly clear to me that nobody does understand this issue - becuase nobody is ever able to give a cogent explanation.  What we get instead is handwaving.

See, it could be that we don't understand it, or maybe that you don't understand it. What seems certain is that we don't understand each other.

Like James Randi, I think it would be entirely reasonable to offer a reward - say £50 - for anyone who can construct a cogent and non-contradictory model of Gloranthan metaphysics in the full confidence it would never be claimed.

Which, like Randi, you'd win. Because you don't admit to the axioms of the argument which are required to allow the prize to be won.

Except for those that do use rational thought. I've given you the example of the people that do.

Do you mean the god-learners?  Otherwise, I am not aware of any such proposition.  the god learners should really not be broght into this discussion IMO.

Actually I think there have been other similar movements, but I'm not steeped enough in Glorantha lore to know for sure. Why should the Godlearners not be brought into the discussion. Your point seems to be, at least in part, that nobody in Glorantha ever took the rationalist POV. When, in fact, they have. The Godlearners, if I have them correctly said, "Gee, could it be that it's not that the truth of the gods is immutable, but that we make them? And if that's so, is it not true that we can manipulate them into doing our wills?"

And what's more telling is that this worked! For a while. So here's an interesting thing. The "reality" of Glorantha is that we don't know what the reality is, or, rather, like our reality, it's an open question.

Yeah, I know you don't think that's functional. But it is. In fact, it allows the players to ask deep theological questions in play.

Characters, however, don't believe this, neccessarily. That is, yes a godlearner believes as you do. And the theist believes otherwise. The game, in completely egalitarian style, makes no statement at all as to which is true.

Instead, it says characters can heroquest, and this results in apparent change. But what the characters believe the changes are, changes in their perception, or actual alterations to the gods, is a matter of the belief of the individual. All of these belief systems are logical, if not based on the same axioms.

Is this functional in play? Quite. Does Sorcerer tell you if summoning demons is a good idea? No, it lets the players decide. In Glorantha, the reality is open to allow you to make your own statements about what these things are about.

But its NOT about Faith and religion, because Gloranthans easily give up their gods for other gods.

Your reading is quite different than mine. They only do give up their gods when presented with some pretty compelling proof. Which is, in part that the faith of the other people has allowed them to prevail in battle, but also that their faith can now be shown to be true.

Which doesn't mean that everyone converts, however. Their faith is so strong, in fact, that many continue to revolt even when presented with visible and tangible evidence. This is, if anything, greater faith than people on earth have. This, apparently, in fact, seems unrealistically strong faith to you. Well, it's a heroic world peopled by heroic people.

You are avoiding the question.  Do Gloranthans have faith in their gods, or knowledge of their gods?  You cannot siply say "both".

Well, now we have to get all epistemological. How can anyone really "know" anything? Pascal posits that you have to start with the assumption that you exist, and extrapolate from there. But outside of that, humans are quite capable of doubting or believing anything despite evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence that can be 100% convincing. As such, faith can always be a choice for people.

This is a non-sequitur. Why don't they matter? I think that they certainly matter to the characters.

Becuase everything is decided by who has the biggest army. (although this itself is not much of an explanation, see later).

But that's so not true. The Orlanthi are going to stage a comeback and win after being defeated in battle. Know how? They're going to heroquest to fix things. The faith of a few is going to end up rectifying some of the trouble that the Lunars have caused.

This is the overall theme of the metaplot. Actually I dislike that the metaplot seems destined to create these themes despite what the players do. But it does speak to the nature of the universe. It's a heroic place, again, and armies cannot stand before the might of the strongest of faiths.

Yes - the whole map of the lunar empire is covered by the glowline, a magical forcefield which is emanated by the reaching moon temples.  Building such temples ius said to be a basic mechanism of the expansion of the empire, and the effect of the glowline is to induce a "permanent full moon" effect for Lunar magic.  Attacking such temples is a serious blow to Lunar power.

Yep, but none of this changes the otherworlds in any way. The subject was syncretization.

If you're now arguing that magic is somehow proof positive of a superior belief system, then that's a whole different subject (which I disagree with for pretty much the same reasons).

But I cannot see how the myths are metagame.  It is repeatedly stated that the nyths of the embiment of Gloranthan culture - without the myths there is virtually nothing in Glorantha but bad chaos monsters.  The myths are presented as important data; knowing myths is a key skill in understanding Glorantha, I have been repeatedly told.  I mean there are whole volumes of myths in prints.  Why, if they are merely irrelevant to my play?  Characters go on missions to find the truths opf particular myths.

Who said the myths are metagame? They aren't. They are completely the beliefs of the people in the game, and what one encounters on the Hero Plane and elsewhere.

What's metagame is the player's ability to alter these things. Or, even better, it can be either way. That is, the reality of Glorantha doesn't say whether or not characters can change myths. What it does say is that the player can order their character to do things that will result in the myths changing. But, again, what we don't know as players is if the myth is actually changed, or if "it was that way all along."

This allows the player to make whatever statement he likes. "Ah, see, I changed the myth, myth must be alterable, so we should not worship the gods but instead make them bend to our will" OR "Ah, see, we've found the deeper truth, all hail Orlanth."

GLorantyhan myths are so iobjective and authoritative that the King of DragonPass game used a multiple choice system to test the players knowledge of myths in order to achieve progress in the game.

I think that comparing the two media is irrellevant. In fact, comparing the "truth" as it was in Runequest, to how it is now in Heroquest is similarly pointless. Because I believe that Greg's intention in making Heroquest was to fix how these things worked in all of these other games.

This does confound the community, BTW, who used to D&D style cosmology for Glorantha, are still adjusting to a much more complex and interesting one.

Ironically, Fang Langford's name for this sort of play is "No Myth." That is, nothing is real in the game world at all, until we discover it as players. That doesn't mean that the characters feel that way. When you say, "we go left at the fork" and you find a temple, the characters assume it's been there forever. The players know that the GM just put it there, or may as well have. It was a fiction created by somebody at some point, and entered into the SIS when somebody thought to do it.

Can you point me to a discussion of this in the text?

Nope. Much of this is largely my own speculation. Rather, it's how it can work. You'd have to ask Greg if it matches his vision. My point has always been that all you have to do is to see things from this POV, and suddenly there are no problems in playing HQ. But this is no different than saying, "To understand how the internal combustion engines work in Top Secret, know that they work this way in the real world, even if it's not clearly explained in the text."

Where did I concede this?

when you pointed out that Gloranthans don't think they are changing myths, when in fact they are doing so.  That was your proposed solution.

We as players aren't informed by the game as to whether or not the characters are actually changing anything. We can choose to portray it that way if we wish, but we can choose to portray it the other way as well. Or leave it a mystery. What we have to be able to do, we all agree, is to portray the characters' responses to these things. And there are any number of reasonable responses that are intuitively available. So there is no problem in play with the ambiguity of the nature of the cosmology. Just as there's no problem portraying a person of faith who would be from the real world.  

Yes, the hero plane itself is simply local to the individual. But they understand this, and don't expect the personal understanding of the truth to match others much. On the God Plane (or Spirit Plane, etc) it's different.

But is it?  So can you then tell me who is the lord of the middle air - is it Sedenya or Orlanth, in the God Plane?

The characters can't know the reality of the situation. We can decide if we want, but that doesn't mean that the characters must act convinced. Put another way, it doesn't matter who "is" the Lord of the Middle Air. What matters is what magic is available to whom, what they percieve, and how the characters react to that.

At different times in the canon timeline, there is certainly evidence that Orlanth is lord, then Sedenya, and it looks like the metaplot will put Orlanth back in place, or at least in contention (hopefully they'll at least end it as as open question instead of deciding who wins). But these are all perceptions of the very fallible humans of the setting. One says, "I can no longer use my feats, and when I go to Orlanth's stead, it is burning! The Lunar goddess is the truth after all!" and another says, "Poppycock, Orlanth is crafty and what you see is merely his laying of a trap for the red bitch. If you'd bothered to look further, you'd see that he ends up putting her in a grave. The reason we can't use our feats is that Orlanth is punishing us for our lack of faith. Soon we'll go to the otherside, and prove that Orlanth is king. Here, let me help our people out by putting two feet of steel through you."

The player knows that they can "edit" the reality of Glorantha. That they can have thier character search out certain truths.

This is a non sequitur.  Exploration is not creation.  Searching out is not editing.

The player is not the character, and vice versa. The player creates, by the definition system in RPGs. The character...well, we don't know if he's creating or not. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, the game doesn't say. But as I've maintained, most of the people of Glorantha believe that they're just searching.

No that simply cannot be true - becuase the in-game descriptions contradict one another.  That is why it cannot be assumed that these things always existed, and the characters just find them, unless I the player am simply expected to ignore the contradictions.

You aren't expected to ignore the contradictions, but to have your character find the explanation for them. In fact, if you were playing a character in my game who you said believed the way that I think that most do, and then you had that character say, "Hey, look, we just changed Orlanth!" I'd ask you to correct that to something like, "Hey, look, we just discovered the true nature of Orlanth!"

We all want the characters to act consistently. So make them act that way. That means having an internally consistent belief system (which can even be disrupted in play - we just require the character to behave logically in response to logical data).

It's like the game Donjon - the player rolls his "find secret door" and, if successful, the player creates one. The character doesn't think that he's created a secret door out of thin air, he thinks it was there all along. In his reality, it was there all along.

Can you point me to a discussion of this argument in the text?  At the moment I feel it is wholly unsupported.

[/quote]But would it work? Nothing in the text contradicts any of what I've said. What I'm showing you is how all of us who have fun with the game, have fun with the game. Not that I've ever taken the time to actually think this out in this depth before - I continue to engage in this line of thought because it does make fodder for play. But that we play this way intuitively, because I think we all feel this is the way to portray such a character. How would you do it consistently otherwise?

It's like you're saying, "Look the characters are presented with a car, but then call it a plane!" and I'm saying, "No, when we play, they call it a car." Now we can argue all day about whether or not the text says to call it a plane or not...

In fact, the text is actually pretty ambiguous on the subject of things like player creation (I've gone on and on about this elsewhere). But there are sections like "It's the Player's Glorantha, too." That doesn't outright say that the player does a lot of reality creation on the fly, but it does say, essentially, that the player should have some director stance ability, and should have some say in what the reality is.

In any case, this is simply standard for most actual play in terms of technique. Player says, "I go to the temple, and pray the Gorbach prayer," inventing the prayer in question on the spot. In HQ, players invent feats which imply the myths behind them all the time (and sometimes even the myths to go with them). Leap Gorge as a feat explicitly creates a myth that must exist to make it possible.

So very much players create the reality of things in HQ. Now, it doesn't say in the heroquesting text explicitly that this is what's happening, I'll grant. But, again, it doesn't say that it's not what's going on, either. Yes, the text tends to state things in terms of the characters altering the myths, but it's ambiguous on whether that means that there is some reality that is changed, or whether it's just the character's perception of reality that's changed. In any case, it's mostly a mechanical description for the players that tells you how to narrate the events in-game. And nowhere does it say that the players just think that they transform the reality. It does, in fact imply my POV, that they are simply going off the beaten path and discovering new ground. That's why it's called exploratory heroquesting. As opposed to, say, conversion heroquesting.

Again, all complicated by the odd nature of the heroplane where most heroquesting occurs with the intent of changing the character questing, not the myths (though said myths may be changed in the process). Here reality is even more ambiguous. But the characters understand that, too.

Mike

[GB Steve]

Here you have the apparent creation of a god where there was none before. But, in fact, as we'll learn with ILH2 when it comes out, this is just the revelation of another entire otherworld. The god plane does not, in fact change at all in this case. Instead what you have is the revelation of an entire otherworld that was not known to exist previously, in which Sedenya has always reigned eternal over all.

When did that happen? I mean, that didn't seem to be the understanding of the event in Gloranthan circles last time I was involved. And to be fair, quoting unpublished material that seems to change from what was previously accepted seems a bit of a sneaky argument. ;-)

I don't really see what faith has to do with the argument. Gareth seems to be asking how the game works, not for some kind of proof of divinity in the real world. I'm sure one should be possible without the other.

Given that I'm not religious in the real world either, a model of Gloranthan religion would be very useful to me so that I can get this core part of the game right.

[James Holloway]

When did that happen? I mean, that didn't seem to be the understanding of the event in Gloranthan circles last time I was involved. And to be fair, quoting unpublished material that seems to change from what was previously accepted seems a bit of a sneaky argument. ;-)

I don't really see what faith has to do with the argument. Gareth seems to be asking how the game works, not for some kind of proof of divinity in the real world. I'm sure one should be possible without the other.

Given that I'm not religious in the real world either, a model of Gloranthan religion would be very useful to me so that I can get this core part of the game right.

Have you found this thread helpful? I think that it's seen some pretty good descriptions of how theism works. If you have questions, I'd be really glad to discuss them, although I'm not exactly Johnny Super-Expert.

As for Sedenya, I don't see how apotheosis is a big problem. Lots of mortals become capable of giving feats as heroes, like Sartar, Alakoring, Vogarth and others. Surely it's not a huge jump from there to making it to full god status. You make it to the god plane and you decide you're going to (or someone else makes you, or whatever) stay there. Lunars apotheosize like jimminy -- there must be eight or nine or even more formerly-divine humans who, to paraphrase a recent post on the Glorantha Digest, "both have and have not always been immortals."

But I'll buy that Sedenya is definitely a different kind of deity -- and some of the stuff that we see talked about for ILH2 tends to reinforce this.

[GB Steve]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The apotheosis I have no qualms about, it's this "whole otherworld" business that is new to me. Does he mean the Red Moon or something else?

Mike really does talk about Glorantha as if it were the real world so that's what can be confusing, "The trouble here is trying to explain to the modern rational mindset how this all works." Given that the game was written and is played by such people, I'm not sure who else needs it explained.

[James Holloway]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The apotheosis I have no qualms about, it's this "whole otherworld" business that is new to me. Does he mean the Red Moon or something else?

Well, I assume it's something to do with Illumination or Mysticism or something.

[joshua neff]

What Mike's referring to is Greg Stafford's comments on the HeroQuest Yahoo lists that the Red Moon is a separate Otherworld--different from the Gods Plane, Spirit World or Essence Plane.  This will be elaborated upon in the forthcoming ILH2.

[contracycle]

Of course Jim-Bob is real. I don't understand how you get from military conversion to "the gods aren't real." Let's return briefly to that topic.

Orlanth is real. When I initiated into manhood, I flew above the clouds to Kalurinoran, and there I saw the heroes and Thunder Brothers drinking in his great hall, Kalurinoran. We all saw it, although we all saw slightly different parts of it, maybe. That day I initiated into Orstan, and ever since I've used a little bit of the god's power to guide my hand as I carve, to make the best work I can.

But did you?

Thunder Rebels page 120, discussing sacred time rituals:

What Does This Look Like?

"At any ceremony outsiders see the mundane events, but they do not see what truly occurs.  They do not see what the worshippers do, because they do not know the secrets or have the proper perceptions.  For example, when outsiders watch an Orlanth ceremony they see the men dancing through the entire rite.  They may even see the men rise into the air and fly in a spiral above the temple.  They cannot see that the worshippers have actually left their bodies and flown into the God World.  Similarly, outsiders at an Ernaldan rite see the women continue to dance, even after the worshippers know that they have fallen asleep and entered the Earth Realm.  In both cases, the souls of the worshippers have gone to the God World."

It is not clear that you ever did see Orlanth, or the hall, or the thunder brothers.  Clearly, to a non-Orlanthi observer, nothing of the sort happened, because they do not "know the secrets" or "have the right perceptions".

[cappadocius]

What Does This Look Like?

"At any ceremony outsiders see the mundane events, but they do not see what truly occurs.  [...]  They cannot see that the worshippers have actually left their bodies and flown into the God World.

It is not clear that you ever did see Orlanth, or the hall, or the thunder brothers.  Clearly, to a non-Orlanthi observer, nothing of the sort happened, because they do not "know the secrets" or "have the right perceptions".

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Non-Orlanthi X has

A) been initiated into his own religion, and knows there are secrets, and spiritual "out of body" experiences that cannot be perceived by the uninitiated; thus, not seeing the Orlanthi go to the God-Realm means nothing except that X has not been initiated into Orlanth's secrets.

B) same as above, but denies that the Orlanthi religion is true, and so they're deluded, while people who can't see his own religious experiences are simply uninitiated. This is rather more common when the two religions come from different magic realms - Malkionism vs Storm Pantheon, rather than Sun Pantheon vs Storm Pantheon.

C) hasn't been initiated, and must take it on faith that what the Initiates and Devotees tell him is true. The outside observer is under no obligation to believe this at all.

Okay? So what?

[James Holloway]

It is not clear that you ever did see Orlanth, or the hall, or the thunder brothers.  Clearly, to a non-Orlanthi observer, nothing of the sort happened, because they do not "know the secrets" or "have the right perceptions".

So what?

No, seriously. So what? You have to be initiated into a religion (well, or Illuminated) in order to get to participate actively in that religion's rites, both physically and magically. If you said to an Orlanthi "well, actually you just hung there in mid-air," he would say "yes, but my soul flew to the Storm Realm." And he'd be right.

Non-Orlanthi observers would probably just go "yeah, I can't see their zany storm-hall thing just like they couldn't see Jim Bob's Eternal Taro Root Field."

[soru]

It is not clear that you ever did see Orlanth, or the hall, or the thunder brothers.  Clearly, to a non-Orlanthi observer, nothing of the sort happened, because they do not "know the secrets" or "have the right perceptions".

Well, the meeting took place on the 'hero plane', the neutral uninvolved observers were not on the hero plane, therefor they did not see the meeting.

Really not sure what it is about that that you are objecting to.  Maybe you are implicitly assuming the neutral uninvolved observers are objectively right, simply because they are uninvolved?

soru

[GB Steve]

It is not clear that you ever did see Orlanth, or the hall, or the thunder brothers.  Clearly, to a non-Orlanthi observer, nothing of the sort happened, because they do not "know the secrets" or "have the right perceptions".

If your character made use of some kind of magical perception such as "Know Truth" or "See Magic" then the magical nature of the event would be apparent and your character would understand it.

[Donald]

Greg is not a shaman; he merely claims to be one.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. I generally accept people's claims about their religious beliefs unless I've seen strong evidence to the contrary.

Then its hardly surprising it can be seen as a poor product, if you concede at the outset that it need not be logical.

You see it as a poor product, I don't because I'm happy to immerse myself in a world in which I don't know the whole logic behind its workings. Just a difference of opinion about the product.

Well that's extremely patronising and dismissive of pre-modern humans, in my opinion.  Archeology has repeatedly shown that rationality is not the special province of modernoity, and that for example even making a stone axe requires a high intellect with the capacity to analyse cause and effect and construct goals out of opportunities.

If anything I'm insulting the modern humans who can't conceive of an alternative way of thinking and assume every sensible person shares their views. There is at least as much belief today in "what the scientist says" as there ever was in "what the high priest says" a 5000 years ago.

I'm well aware of this, but it is the Gloranthan game texts that keep appealing to the provability of myths, not I.

Proven by experience, not in the scientific sense of independently verified by controlled experiment. Of course the belief that scientists always have their results independently verified by controlled experiments is a modern myth.

Of course I as a real person do not accept the existance of these spheres, and we have been to the moon.  Thats not the point.  The game works, because the game does not contradict itself.  I am quite willing and able to work within the limits of a belief system I do not personally share as long as that belief system is articulated to me.  The problem with Glorantha is that the beliefe SYSTEM is not being artiiculated - only individual and contradictory beliefs.

This is your problem, Glorantha doesn't have one belief system but many. They contradict because each of them has found enough evidence to support their view. You have no more chance of reconciling all these different belief systems than you do of reconciling all the real world religions. To me this makes Glorantha more interesting and much closer to the real world than simplistic worlds where the creator has provided a canon explanation for how the world works.

As far as I can tell Greg isn't very interested in the metaphysics of Glorantha so doesn't write or explain much about it. Just about everything published is written from one cultural viewpoint or another.

[contracycle]

Okay? So what?

Well, so what is this: it is not clear that the Orlanthi actually do magic and commune with their alleged gods.  This is where the perception comes in that Glorantha makes perfect sense if you assume that nobody actually has magic powers.

And it is directly related to the issue of conversion and syncretism too.  Because, how can I convert or persuade anyone when the truth of my argument depends on them already agreeing with my argument, such that they have the correct perceptions to see my proof?

It appears recursive to me.

As above, this is where the perception arises that it may be valid to see Glorantha as an almost entirely non-magical place.  I mean, when the warriors come home explaining that they were smote by Lunar magic, does that mean they actually were smote, or is that just a post hoc metaphor to explain their defeat?

It also has to do with cultural relatavism.  Emperor Takanegi is said to have Proved that he exhibits the Eagle Heart or something aspect of the emperor.  But on the strength of this passage, that proof can only be seen by other Lunars.  Which means that if we are playing an Orlanthi game and met the emperor, I as the GM would feel should describe Takanegi as if no such proof was applicable - presumably as a fat sybarite or similar.

This is important if for example I am called upon to judge a conflict of powers.  Does Takanegi ACTUALLY possess the Eagle Heart, objectively?  That is not clear, not to me anyway.

[contracycle]

If you said to an Orlanthi "well, actually you just hung there in mid-air," he would say "yes, but my soul flew to the Storm Realm." And he'd be right.

Clearly, he would be wrong.  I could say, no you and your buddies got drunk, fell down, and told a lot of wild stories the next day, I saw you.

And because I KNOW that the true Lord of the Middle Air is Sedenya, I kow that this is true.