Confusions - Demon Abilities and 'Drawn Contests'

[Gethyn]

Hi

OK, so here are a couple of shallow Sorcerer questions based on no actual play experience, but they're bugging me.
I'm sure they're trivial and obvious but my brain's in a pretzel over them - I've trawled many old posts and reread the rules a few times but not quite cleared up my confusion yet.

1. Demon Abilities and Stamina
I know it's been done in many threads but I still can't get it straight.
What counts as a 'use' and when?
So Abilities like Special Damage, say, are easy, I think - Demon goes 'kazam', hit or miss it counts as one use against its Stamina quota.
Take something like Ranged, though.
Would Ranged Special Damage (like the FBI guy's demon gun, Woo in the rules example) 'cost' 2 uses to set off each time, or is Ranged bound up 'for free' in the Special Damage itself?

Is there a simple rule of thumb (or just a plain old rule for that matter) that I'm missing here that would make it all shiny and simple?

2. Drawn Dice Rolls
This is really stupid but here we go anyway. The key point here being, one person has a roll with all dice showing the same results and the other person has the same numbers plus a few more.

I noticed it when playing with a 1 die contest, but take Guy A vs Guy B; 2 dice vs 5 dice:
A: 9 9  vs B: 9 9 9 5 2

What's that? A draw? 3 victories to B? Something in the middle?
I try to work it out based on scenarios with more and fewer dice on both sides, but end up in the same place anyway. I'm caught between "it's a draw" and "but B has more dice..."

Brrzt...Brain fused...Can't compute....

I appreciate I'm probably thinking too hard about both of these but someone please just give me a figurative slap on the forehead before I do myself an injury... :)

G

[gorckat]

not sure on your first question, but on the second, i do beleive that B gets 1 success- he had a 9 that A couldn't beat.
same thing happens if B had 9 9 5 5 2- B had a 5 that A couldn't beat

here's the link to the Sorcerer Wiki (not sure if you already saw that) http://random.average-bear.com/Sorcerer/HomePage

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Brian's right about the dice. I think you're confusing yourself a bit about this "more dice" thing, which isn't an issue.

Now, as far as the abilities go, you are asking two questions, I think.

1. Do Ranged and other "modifying" abilities count as uses? The answer is yes. Demon abilities can be pretty expensive.

2. How does one calculate uses for stuff like Armor or Protection?

The answer is to think in terms of demonic commitment to act, not in terms of minutes or charges. If a demon zaps someone three times during a fight, that's three uses. But if the demon uses Armor throughout the fight, for several rounds, then it's still just one use.

A good thread which lays it all out, probably a little better than I'm doing right now, is How did I miss this? Check that out, then c'mon back.

Best,
Ron

[Gethyn]

Thanks Brian, for your prompt reply, and Ron for that link.
Lot of good stuff in there. The concept of 'commitment to act' is a nice one, in particular.

I almost feel compelled to start a thread called "How Did I Miss How Did I Miss This?" ;)

That said, I am still hazy about aspects of both areas though... :/

On the dice front, rather than sit here going "duh..yeah but..." over and over again, I think I probably just need to go away and scratch at the actual rules a bit more.
I'll do that and post again tomorrow to let you know if my brain unknots.
I'm utterly convinced it's simpler than I'm making it in my head.

On the Ability front, I think I'm mixing up two things from different discussions and making myself confused.

Just when I'm happy that a power like Armour is 'switched on' once and lasts for a whole scene (counting as a single use for Stamina purposes), I then recall reading something to the effect of "yes, but every time an attack hits that Armour during the fight, it counts as an additional use of the Ability on top".

Is that real or have I entirely hallucinated the entire thing?

I do appreciate your patience with all this.

G

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Gethyn,

Patience? Geez, compared to some of the screaming meemies I've had to deal with over Sorcerer rules (almost always concluded with, "Really? But that's easy!"), you're a peach. This is fun.

About the dice, tell you what - just take a bunch of real dice and roll'em against one another. However you want, lots against a little, lots against lots, a little against a little. Come up with about a dozen to twenty comparisons. Don't make them up! Really roll and really write them down.

Then just post'em here. Don't try to interpret them on your own. Let me tell you what they mean. Then see whether it's making sense to you.

Now, about those abilities:

Just when I'm happy that a power like Armour is 'switched on' once and lasts for a whole scene (counting as a single use for Stamina purposes), I then recall reading something to the effect of "yes, but every time an attack hits that Armour during the fight, it counts as an additional use of the Ability on top".

Is that real or have I entirely hallucinated the entire thing?

I can't help you with the hallucinating-or-not thing, but I can say, go with your first "when I'm happy" statement. It's remotely possible that I said something that looks like the second statement, but I'm pretty sure not, or if I did, it would have been in a highly specific context that shouldn't come into this.

Best,
Ron

[Gethyn]

Yay! It's official - I actually understand something! :)

Well here we go with some rolls then. Let this stand as a warning to all...

*rattle rattle*

20 rolls as they came out:

10 v 10 10 9 9 8 3 1 1
10 4 v 7 6 5 2
6 5 4 2 v 10 10 9 6 5
10 5 3 3  v 10  9 5 4
7 v 10 8 6 2
10 v 10 8 4 2 1
8 v 9 5 5 1 1
10 2 2 v 6 6 4 3 1
10 9 1 1 v 10 9 6 4 1
10 8 8 7 4 2 v 9 8 8 6 5 2
4 3 2 v 9 8 7 6 6 2 2 2
9 8 4 3 v 8 5 4 1
10 v 10 10 5 5 3 1
10 v 10 8 6 3 3 1
8 v 8 8 4 3
8 7 6 5 5 3 1 v 10 8 7 6 6 5 1
7 6 5 4 3 v 10 10 7 7 5 4 4 3
10 6 v 9 6 4
7 6 v 10 5 4 4 1
6 5 v 6 5 4 3

How's that?

G

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Gethyn,

And away we go ...

10 v 10 10 9 9 8 3 1 1
B wins with one victory (see special rules about one-die ties)
p. 18: "... if one opponent is only rolling a single die, and if he or she rolls equal to the other opponent's highest value, the result is treated as one victory in favor of the opponent with more than one die."

10 4 v 7 6 5 2
A wins with one victory

6 5 4 2 v 10 10 9 6 5
B wins with three victories

10 5 3 3 v 10 9 5 4
B wins with one victory

7 v 10 8 6 2
B wins with two victories

10 v 10 8 4 2 1
B wins with one victory (see special rules about one-die ties)

8 v 9 5 5 1 1
B wins with one victory

10 2 2 v 6 6 4 3 1
A wins with one victory

10 9 1 1 v 10 9 6 4 1
B wins with two victories

10 8 8 7 4 2 v 9 8 8 6 5 2
A wins with one victory

4 3 2 v 9 8 7 6 6 2 2 2
B wins with five victories

9 8 4 3 v 8 5 4 1
A wins with one victory

10 v 10 10 5 5 3 1
B wins with one victory (see special rules about one-die ties)

10 v 10 8 6 3 3 1
B wins with one victory (see special rules about one-die ties)

8 v 8 8 4 3
B wins with one victory (see special rules about one-die ties)

8 7 6 5 5 3 1 v 10 8 7 6 6 5 1
B wins with one victory

7 6 5 4 3 v 10 10 7 7 5 4 4 3
B wins with two victories

10 6 v 9 6 4
A wins with one victory

7 6 v 10 5 4 4 1
B wins with one victory

6 5 v 6 5 4 3
B wins with two victories (basically the 4 and the 3 count as victories after the higher dice cancel; alternately, some people treat this as the same as a single-die tie situation, although that isn't following the rules)

Thoughts, comments, points? Do you see that usually, once you look at only a couple of dice on each side, the rest of the dice are just irrelevant?

Best,
Ron

P.S. I prefer to use real names in this forum. Is Gethyn yours? If not, what is it?

[Gethyn]

I prefer to use real names in this forum. Is Gethyn yours?

Heh. :) Yes, it really is my name - Gethyn Edwards. I guess if this was a Sorcerer game, we'd be long-lost brothers hosting a pair of Linked Possessors or something. It would certainly explain why I keep having terrible nightmares about distribution contracts and forum moderation.

Family trees aside, thanks for your your dice analysis, it was most helpful.

A good 99% of the rolls I'm right on the ball with - it's just this situation here:

6 5 v 6 5 4 3
B wins with two victories (basically the 4 and the 3 count as victories after the higher dice cancel; alternately, some people treat this as the same as a single-die tie situation, although that isn't following the rules)

I just want to double check that.
Back in my first post I used 9 9 vs 9 9 9 5 2  as my example.
Brian said "B wins by 1", which you agreed with.

Going by the principle in our 6 5 v 6 5 4 3 case here, shouldn't B have won by 3 victories?
ie A's two 9s cancel, leaving B with 9 5 2 vs [nothing] = 3?

Last night I believed I had it - "A-ha," I thought, "It's simply an application of the 1-die principle...1 victory to B!"

But if doing it that way isn't following the rules, I'm tiptoeing back into the Land of Confusion again. :)

I could ramble on a bit more but I'll just step back and let you point out what I'm missing.

Cheers

G

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Gethyn,

Whoops, I fucked up a little back in the first exchange. I shall explain.

I just want to double check that.
Back in my first post I used 9 9 vs 9 9 9 5 2 as my example.
Brian said "B wins by 1", which you agreed with.

Going by the principle in our 6 5 v 6 5 4 3 case here, shouldn't B have won by 3 victories?
ie A's two 9s cancel, leaving B with 9 5 2 vs [nothing] = 3?

Right. In your first example, B should win by three victories.

However! A lot of people apply the single-die tie rule to any set of inequal dice in which the lesser-pool player rolls high ties. So that would apply to 9 9 vs. 9 9 9 5 2 (as you say), or to 5 5 4 vs. 5 5 4 1 1, or 10 6 5 5 vs. 10 6 5 5 3 2, and so on. This is an acceptable variant.

The rules-as-written tend to accentuate the impact of having a lot more dice than the other guy (if he has at least two), because you can get a lot of victories even if he ties out with his fewer dice. Applying the single-die tie rules to any unequal pairing (the variant) tends to reduce this impact.

Jonathan Tweet characterized the existing difference between the one-die tie rule and the other rolls as a "crock," so at least for some people, it's a preferred variant. And as you can see, I went ahead and used it without thinking about it when I answered your first post.

Best,
Ron

[gorckat]

interesting- i'm sure its been gone over either here or in the archives on your site, Ron, but it just seems more intuitive to apply the '1-die tie' rule to any situation where the first dice in both pools are ties, since the person wth fewer dice can't do more thanhe already has to succeed...

no need to get into that discussion here and now- but thanks for clarifying, and thanks Gethyn for pointing it out :)

[Michael S. Miller]

interesting- i'm sure its been gone over either here or in the archives on your site, Ron, but it just seems more intuitive to apply the '1-die tie' rule to any situation where the first dice in both pools are ties, since the person wth fewer dice can't do more thanhe already has to succeed...

So you're suggesting that  9 3 2 versus 9 8 7 6 5 4 should be considered a 1-victory for B instead of a 5-die (and Total) victory for B?

If you are suggesting that, I urge you not to do it.

Unless you're using d20s or d30s, this will cause you to almost always have only 1-die victories. As pools get bigger, you have more ties, and if ties automatically invoke the "1-die tie" rule, then you've nearly put a ceiling on the amount of victories at 1. This will player UTTER HAVOC with the game as written. With the slim possibility of rollover victories above 1, along with the slim possibility of damage above 1, the benefit of using Demonic Powers goes out the window. And without that... it just ain't Sorcerer.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

No, Michael, I don't think that's what he's proposing. I think he's talking about stuff like

9 3 2 vs. 9 3 2 1 1 1

in which all of the loser's dice are tied with the highest dice of the winner.

Going by the written rules, that's three victories for B (the three unopposed 1's).

But if you extend the single-die tie (special) rules, basically treating it as 9 vs. 9 3 2, then it's one victory for B.

Um, just to be 100% clear, is everyone up to speed with Gethyn about this? I mean, understanding the real rules and never mind the variant?

Best,
Ron

[Gethyn]

Hi

This is turning into a far more interesting topic than I ever imagined it would.

For myself, I'm totally clear now, thanks very much for laying it all out.

A tiny part of me wants it to be consistent for both cases ("but *why* should 1-die be a special case" etc), but actually as long I grok the rules them I'm perfectly happy.

Cheers

G

[Trevis Martin]

I didn't get it before, but I do now.  I was also using the special case for all  ties where one side ties competely. So now:

For die rolls where one side rolls only one die, a tie indicates a marginal vicotry for the side with more than one die.

For normal die rolls that do not meet the above condition, when all of one side's dice are tied high, then all unopposed dice count as victories.

Is that right?  Or am I confusing things?

Trevis

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Trevis,

That's right.

The real way to look at it is that this situation

5 vs. 5 3 2

would be two victories for B, because of his two unopposed dice. That's what would happen if we didn't have any special rules.

Which would be perfectly fine, actually, if we wanted to bare our saber teeth in every single roll in Sorcerer.

Bear in mind that there are some very significant one-die rolls in Sorcerer (barring bonuses): snap-shot rituals and any time you've been hammered to 0 dice through penalties. These are major dramatic situations in Sorcerer. See now why I wanted to add a little edge under those conditions?

The special rule is therefore to give one-die rollers just a weeny edge, so that if they tie the winner's highest die, they're not totally screwed by the extra dice. Call it the "underdog edge."

So there's some logic to that inconsistency between single-die and multiple-dice rolls, in term sof these conditions of tieing. I consider Tweet's "crock" comment to be unjustified. See why?

The more I think about it, actually, the more I think that extending the single-die edge out to cover any unequal matching of rolls, when the loser ties out to the winner's highest die, is a bad idea. Far better to do the "sabertooth" option and lose any special rule entirely. Gethyn, if what you want is 100% system consistency, then that's the way to do it.

Best,
Ron