Explain the presense of your faith...

[Ben Lehman]

I believe in a benevolent higher power that suffuses the entire Universe.  God.

I believe that rational human beings have a choice whether to believe in God or not.

I do not believe that the fact that they have this choice is accidental.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  Because I'm physics trained, this ties into Quantum Mechanics for me.

[Anonymous]

I started out as the typical Southern Baptist. Until age 14 or so. I had some pretty serious differences with our Youth Ministry and our Youth Ministers in particular. I think the parting words were if I ever showed myself at their church again they were going to kick my ass.

That pretty much ended my relationship with organized religion. Since then I've wandered all over the place. I've been part of a very hush-hush Wicca group. Taken part in preparations to (no joke) bring about the reign of Cthulhu on Earth. I've made deals with my ancestors. They're still not so happy with me. I've went into a very pragmatic relationship with Anubis. I've studied Buddhism, Hinduism and Gnosticism pretty extensively. But I subscribe to no one particular belief system.

Perhaps the most productive spiritual point in my life was when I was doing shamanic work. There are a number of things that happened during that time for which I have no real explanation. My current living situation makes it near impossible for me to do much of anything

So, to answer your questions as best as I can...

Why do you think you know?

Personal experience. I've had shared hallucinations. Two people see the same thing at the same time that's not there. They both know it's not there and only relate it to each other afterwards. Theoretically, I don't think a shared hallucination is all that likely. If two people see the same thing, is it really there? What if three people see it? Who knows?

I've also had things happen in my life as a result of prayer and deals with spirits and such. This could be just my subconscious working for me. Who knows, Chaos Magicians have a wonderfully packaged way of explaining stuff like that.

I've also foreseen things that I couldn't possibly explain. For example, I had a premonition of a hurricane hitting our home a week before the weather channel even registered one in the gulf. I also had a very distinct vision of my wife and received her name from a spirit guide, a year before I ever met her and three years before she and I began dating. Just stuff that's flat out hard to describe. I also kept a journal during this time, which is good because if I hadn't I wouldn't even have the "proof" that I have of these instances. Even when I saw them, though, I didn't realize what was going on until later. They didn't really help me out beyond giving me a sense that something good or bad was on the way.

I also had blackouts throughout my adolescence. I was checked but diagnosed as not having epilepsy. Sometimes I would hear things in my blackouts. But they were always brief and it was difficult to remember what I had heard afterwards.

I also had two close calls with choking due to intoxicants. In both instances, it was not me that got me breathing again. In the first instance, it was a voice, that was not my own, that reminded me to breathe. In the second, it was a cat. In the second instance, I also experienced very weird time-shifts. Very weird stuff. But I wasn't on anything that heavy. No hallucinogens.

But all of it is very subjective. I couldn't prove it in a court of law. I believe there's something out there because I've experienced it. Felt it. But it could just be synapses in my brain firing too. If so, then there's a lot more to my brain than I could've ever thought. Like I said, I saw things and experienced things that happened weeks, even years later.

But I have no hard evidence. I realize that. It's the same sort of conundrum like that at the end of the movie Contact. You know what you went through. You think you remember it all right. You even wrote it down to remember it. But there's nothing much that you can do to convince anybody else of it.

So I don't really try. My experience of the Divine or the Other won't be yours. And neither of us can prove our case beyond a reasonable doubt. Like the Buddha says (paraphrase) "Contemplating questions like that will not bring you closer to enlightenment."

Scott

[GB Steve]

I was baptised Catholic and went to Sunday school, but I asked too many questions. I figured if they were scared of asking the questions, let alone the answers then religion wasn't the place for me.

I don't mind if other people see a spiritual dimension to life, much as I don't mind that they don't support the same football team as me. Both make about as much sense to me. So when my wife says I have no soul, I say, "that's right, I don't."

I also have a strong feeling that any morality that comes, no questions asked, from a book is not moral. Morality is about asking questions. As such I don't believe in anything, I theorise and rely on evidence.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Sigh... In defense of organized religion (and not targeting anyone in particular):

Yes, blindly taking ethical and cosmological ideas from a book or other authority without questioning is a bad idea that leads to needless suffering.

But so is saying "the last 4,000 [or more] years of human experience have no lessons for me, therefore I will ignore the texts and doctrine that attempt to codify said experience." Smart people have been thinking about good, evil, life, death, family, government, and so on, in a religious context, since ... well, since people were thinking. There are some wheels here there's no need to reinvent.

The Episcopalian/Anglican catchphrase for this balancing act is "scripture, tradition, and reason": God gave us sacred texts (through the inspiration of flawed and human writers), but He also gave us brains to think about them, and countless generations of people who thought about them before us and might have a thing or two worth listening to. If you throw out any of these three elements, you're missing something important.

[GB Steve]

If you throw out any of these three elements, you're missing something important.

But if you stick with dogma then maybe you are, and that was my personal experience. There were just some questions I wasn't allowed to ask and many for which the answer was 'God says so', let alone the many times when God appeared to say so but was conveniently forgotten about.

My own morality, based largely around humanist principles, is probably not so very different from that of adherents to many religions. I'm not saying don't read scripture, or the Koran or the Kalevala, but question what you read.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

I'm a practicing Jew, raised by my parents and clan in the religion. Some of these questions strike me as odd, and make some assumptions about the nature of religion (as opposed to the nature of particular religions).

Why do you think you know?

Judaism is a method of looking into the unknown, using millennia of experience, from the philosophical and mathematical to the mystical. It's not about knowing, it's about learning.

Vis. any Jewish responses to this. See how they vary. It is said, "Where there are two Jews, there are three opinions."

How often have you made pretty dramatic shifts in belief?

Every time I really think about it. Yom Kippur is a day of meditation, so it happens a lot then. Sometimes, it's just when I read something juicy. In general, those shifts tend toward synthesizing Torah with history and science. A philosophy that can't hold all of those (and much, much more that I don't know how to perceive) isn't truth, it's just a ball of coincidences.

Is there any presentable evidence for what you believe (and should there be?)?

Sure: the Universe exists. It self-organizes. There's pi, Chaos, Complexity, the Periodic Table. Since ancient Sumeria, mathematics has been a lens through which we look at the Unknown, and we continue to marvel at it. How did pi get there? What about the Periodic Table? Those vast coincidences are what make the Universe what it is, and examining them is looking at the footprints of God.

One of my real beliefs - and I use this word in its most basic meaning, as something that I hold to be true instinctively, perhaps regardless of evidence - is that the vast majority of all religion - and this includes aspects of Judaism - winds up dangerously close to idolatry: believing that, within a symbol, lies God, and that by controling this symbol, you understand God. Anything - anything - that you worship is an idol, and the danger inherent in that is that there is no idol there: you worship the symbol in your mind: you worship yourself.

Not that the study of the self isn't interesting, enlightening, and powerful. But thinking that the Universe exists for your benefit is hubris that will burn you.

[daMoose_Neo]

Supernatural events can also be interprited by anyone.
Take myself ^_^ Or my family actually.

We're almost living on the *edge* of the supernatural. Looking back through my family, speaking with parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, great aunts, great uncles, great grandparents etc. I've learned a rather cool thing: each generation on both sides, one of the kids experianced a portion of their lives where they had a number of unexplained coincidences, premonitions and visions. And, come to find out, of my parents families, they each were the ones who had the experiances. And now, my brother and myself have a nice set of the unexplained floating about us.

Now, here's the interesting part: on my mothers side, its a strictly German/Lutheran upbringing, and a strong one at that. Myself, I was baptised and confirmend Luthern.
My own faith was shaped pretty heavily when I was three. I had a pair of deaths that must have struck me hard, as my parents had me seeing a grief councilor through the hospital for several months. Before the counciling, and indeed after, I had numerous conversations (that I recall having, but not what was said) with an elderly woman in my home. She was either my great-grandmother or the prior inhabitant of the home, I don't know. Pleasant old lady though, I was never scared or worried.
From that point, all my upbringing in the church was tempered by a knowledge of the truth in an afterlife and acceptance that hey, we're human, the important part isn't the exact words or phrases, but the concepts behind them. I will, on occasion, cite a passage in the Bible as a counterpoint, but only as I'm discussing the books with someone who feels they are better versed than myself.

Through life, I've always been one step ahead of almost everyone and everything, knew where I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to do. Through highschool, I was the school councilor- I'd get folks on MSN I didn't even know asking for advice because, for whatever explicable reason, I just knew what would work.
My junior year, everything in my world literally changed. My fathers employees turned on him, destroyed the agency he worked at for my entire life, and framed him for medicade fraud. In the aftershocks of that I had the typical "If there is indeed a God, why the hell did this happen?!" reaction- the loss of the agency triggered a breakdown in my dad, almost destroyed my parents marriage, and all sorts of other wonderful shit. All I could ask was "What now?" - To which, I recieved answer, after answer after answer.
For around a good year and half, I was seeing the future of my friends during some really turbulant times in all of our lives, and every prediction I had, every dream and vision I saw came to pass. One that bothered me was a vision of a destructive storm on the horizon and it took me a long time to work it all out. In the meantime, I helped a couple friends survive their own hell, helped my mother deal with her own issues, became "linked" with a girl I had a crush on and felt every pain she did (who in retrospect was rather unstable and that was a damn painful experiance.)Woke up one night thinking I was having a heartattack, exact same time she was embroiled in a hellish, heartwrenching situation with the guy she was seeing.
It was about that time I finally knew what the horizon was- I looked at my mother one night and said someone from my class was going to before graduation: it wouldn't be because of something they did, and it would be a well loved, truly decent person.
Months passed after that, it took a lot to finally break that "link" (including "God, what the HELL is going on?!"), tried my best to look past the visions and just graduate, and still kept recieving them. Last one I recalled was extemely vivvid and involved me, at college, meeting up with a girl I already knew from an HS sport. I saw exactly what she was wearing and knew she had long dark hair, but never saw her face. Lots of other specific details arose about the school, which I later noted in my own journal (which I kept for about 3 years).
Graduation night came, got to the school, and everyone around me is crying...sure enough, "Dark horizon" came to pass: childhood schoolmate, well liked by EVERYONE, was involved in a car accident on her way to the school for the ceremony. She flatlined at the scene but was stablized and shipped to another hospital for trauma...and died two weeks later. After that, I had another of my many conversations with God, asking him to stop sending me whatever it was that he was sending, hurt too damn much, and sure enough they stopped.
That fall, started college, met up with an old acquaintance from HS who soon became more and about three months into our relationship I unearthed my old journal entry about that last vision...it described her to a T, as well as our first couple months of being together. From construction on the college that started that summer, to plays she performed in the pit for, to clothes that stood out: a leather jacket and sweatshirt, each for their own reasons. After a number of years of botched relationships before that, the girl I finally click with was the one God showed me in my dreams.

Say what you will. I don't need to believe, I KNOW that there is a force in the universe looking out for us. My visions showed me things that were the result of human choice, but allowed me to help those people make better choices or simply comfort them and lend strength when it was something beyond their personal control. I know this force as God: Father, Christ & Holy Spirit, and it answers to it. Maybe it is something else, using my upbringing and preconceptions as a means to communicate or maybe it honestly is the God I believe it to be. What I know with certainty is that its out there, its watching, and it acts, but not always in ways we comprehend.

[Meguey]

I was born to an ex-Fundementalist Baptist, read a TON of myths/world religions, then started going to the Unitarian Universalist church in 3rd grade.  It always fit, especially the part where serious questioning / investigation of ideas is actively encouraged, and being really interested in other's experience and POV is valued.

For me, faith/religion/spirituality has lots to do with the interconnectedness of  life, people, ecosystems, economics, etc. We're absolutly part of something bigger, even if that bigger is only the ecology of the planet.

If I accept that I am part of 'something bigger', then I have to accept that the well-being of some parts of the 'bigger' affect the well-being of other parts, and therefor that my actions matter. I also sometimes think of it like ripples in a pool of water: what I do has impact I cannot fully percive. If I am calm and friendly as I wait in line (which I hate doing!), then the experience of the others around me is also more clam and friendly. That may mean they leave a little less rushed, and maybe they treat the next person they interact with better.  Also, it's not always conscious on my part.

Here's the story: When I was a baby, my Mom had a neighbor she disliked. The neighbor was everything Mom wasn't as a parent, but, in that weird way of new parents, they hung out together some anyway.  The other mom had had 3 or more children removed by DSS for neglect, and her current kid wasn't getting a much better deal. Spanking and TV and soda was the default. So, when she came over, Mom would use that time to make all her La Leche Leauge calls, chatting with other moms about breastfeeding, reading to kids, etc.  We moved in a few months, and Mom didn't keep in touch.

Years later, Mom was an out-reach worker for Planned Parenthood. She went up to a door and knocked. The woman who answered was obviously just up from nursing a baby, and an older child was playing with blocks on the floor. After a short time, the woman said "You don't remember me, do you?" Mom did not. It was the same woman, who had listened to what Mom was telling the women on the phone, and watched how mom was with me, and when she had her next baby, she decided there must be another way, and she set out to learn it. Her kids were with her, she was happier with her parenting, and Mom hadn't even been trying to effect change.

Some peolpe call that the random chaos of life. That's fine too.

So yeah. Plus, how can you taste maple sap fresh from the tree and not feel the rush of Life in your veins, glad to have lived through another winter?

[ScottM]

Wow, Meguey, that's a cool story. Thanks.

Scott

[greyorm]

I'm not saying don't read scripture, or the Koran or the Kalevala, but question what you read.

Steve, I'm not sure if you realize this or not, but that statement comes across as insulting. The belief underlying it seems to be that religious people are all a bunch of blind, ignorant, unquestioning sheep, that religious people don't question what they read.

Think about it: neopagans don't even HAVE a sacred book, they don't have priests that tell them what it's all about, all they get to do is think about things! Then there is Bhuddism, where one of the primary tenets of their faith is to question everything, including every tenet of their faith! And it is not as though Bhuddism is some minor religion on the world stage, with only a few million adherents, that you shouldn't know this (and I haven't even mentioned Reformed Judaism or Unitarians).

That's four fairly large, well-known religions who DO question their religious writ as part of the practice of their faith. So, I guess what I'm saying is that one had definitely better question "Skeptics Weekly" or whatever would-be secular authority books you happen to read as well because atheists, despite, their claims about rationality and informed questioning, are (in general) very ignorant about religion in general. Particularly American atheists, who tend to believe that all religions are basically like fundamentalist Christianity, but with different hats.

Ultimately, I agree with the sentiment, so, yeah, read stuff and question it! But additionally, by the gods, read it! Especially those of you who think you've got this religion thing and these religious people all figured out, and like to talk down to the religious as though they are children.

Ok, semi-rant over.

[James Holloway]

Particularly American atheists, who tend to believe that all religions are basically like fundamentalist Christianity, but with different hats.

Well, in all fairness, American atheists spend a lot of time thinking about fundamentalist Christianity because it's fundamentalist Christianity which is the biggest immediate problem for them.

[greyorm]

Well, in all fairness, American atheists spend a lot of time thinking about fundamentalist Christianity because it's fundamentalist Christianity which is the biggest immediate problem for them.

Certainly, I agree that is the source of it! But that situation is not an excuse for the behavior. I find it disingenous that they as a group should so loudly proclaim how well educated they are and how important educating yourself is, and then proceed to hold forth in displays of the very depths of uneducated ignorance. When you get right down to it, they end up behaving with as much willful ignorance as the fundamentalists they are in constant conflict with.

Note: certainly not all atheists are like this, but the idea holds for (American) atheists as a group and is supported throughout much of their literature, regardless of the differences of individuals. Also, I'm certainly not excusing such behavior on any side, so don't take this as simply picking on atheists -- any atheists in the audience should take it as a challenge to improve themselves and their knowledge.

[Anonymous]

[quote="greyorm"
So, I guess what I'm saying is that one had definitely better question "Skeptics Weekly" or whatever would-be secular authority books you happen to read as well because atheists, despite, their claims about rationality and informed questioning, are (in general) very ignorant about religion in general. Particularly American atheists, who tend to believe that all religions are basically like fundamentalist Christianity, but with different hats.[/quote]

Actually, I find the opposite is true. Most atheists I've met know much more about religion than most religious people.

It's that whole objective analysis thing.

[Anonymous]

Steve, I'm not sure if you realize this or not, but that statement comes across as insulting. The belief underlying it seems to be that religious people are all a bunch of blind, ignorant, unquestioning sheep, that religious people don't question what they read.

Yep, seems fair enough.  

That's four fairly large, well-known religions who DO question their religious writ as part of the practice of their faith.

But do they really?  Or do they just go through the motions of skepticism becuase even they belatedly realism the value that skepticism offers.  Unfortunately, this is just another meaningless ritual, engaged in not so much to seek truth as to construct legitimacy.

Particularly American atheists, who tend to believe that all religions are basically like fundamentalist Christianity, but with different hats.

Which is also pretty much fair enough.  The specifics of the doctrine are lesser differentiations than the commonality of superstition and credulity.

Ultimately, I agree with the sentiment, so, yeah, read stuff and question it! But additionally, by the gods, read it! Especially those of you who think you've got this religion thing and these religious people all figured out, and like to talk down to the religious as though they are children.

I feel entitled to, as I have put away my childish things, and they still play with theirs.

[contracycle]

The post immediately above was by me, but under a guest account for some reason.