Looking for some advice...

[Tim C Koppang]

Let me try and make a few suggestions:

You say that you want to introduce more authorial power to your players, but they don't seem to want to put in the effort required.  Well, as a start you may want to try a game like Donjon Krawl.  It uses quite a bit of authorial power, yet it's light in theme.  This way your players can see how much fun different styles of play can be, yet they won't draw any kind of associations between meatier subject matter and those techniques.  It might not be what you want right away, but at least they would be moving in the "right" direction.  Then, I'd say you'd be in a better position to drop a more narrativist orientated game on them.  In other words, once they have a grasp on some of the techniques, you can try out some more serious subject matter using those techniques.

Alternativily, don't worry about authorial power.  Use the simulationist techs that everyone is comfortable with, but throw some heavier stuff at them in small doses.  The small doses are the key though.  Sometimes, if you try to much at once, you can really alienate people.  I think just having few choice moments that make everyone quetion the situation beyond the typical, "Should I kill it?" would make you a lot happier with you gaming.  Then maybe your players will become more interested in those moments and you can talk about how to do more of that with them.

What I would not do is start throwing theory in their face.  Not that you have, but I want to kick myself for all the times I started saying, "I want narrativist play and you don't.  You suck."  I've even tried to go about the subject in a more discussion-based fasion, where everyone is just airing their own viewpoints.  It doesn't work most of the time.  You are much better off playing games and throwing new stuff at them in small doses.  Then when you have your post-game wrap-up, you can ask them, "Did you like this?"  If they say yes, you can move the game in more of that direction.  The key is to challenge the players to try new things, not to expect them to conform to a certain style of play.

Theory is good for talking about games, and designing, but when it comes to acutally playing a game, throwing labels around can be very dangerous.

[Emily Care]

Sounds good, Lael. Maybe you can try Tim C K (fleetingGlow's) suggestions.  

It is discouraging to have people turn down more creative power in the name of it being "too much work."  Honestly, it took me several years of watching other people do it before I believed that I could build world etc with the best of them... And at least I had people modeling the behaviour in front of me...

And Chris:

Oh, and Emily, sorry about short-changing your MFA program.  ;  )

No problem. Didn't know I was a professor in the "Bite Off More Than You Can Chew" Department, did  ya?
:)

--EC

[Ayrizale]

Cool.  Thanks for the suggestions.  I've already got some ideas for stuff that I can toss them and see how they handle it.  I have at least one player that may be willing to go for something a bit deeper.  I've had some ideas and I think that I'm going to play it out and see if I can get those moment's of "payoff" that make it worth the time.  And if it doesn't work, then it is just another lesson learned.

Thanks again for the insights,

Lael

[Mike Holmes]

Odd. You want a Simulationist game with a Narrativist Premise? Hmmm. And that premise you cite is reeeeeally narrow. It would get thematically played out after the first encounter. A typical Sim -char/setting Premise is more like "What is it like to be a knight in Arthurian legend." Ala Pendragon.

How about a more specific question. What system would you use? What type of setting interests you? Anything as long as it's group constructed?

FWIW, I can identify with your desires. I and my friends happily play mostly Sim - char/setting stuff. And I really enjoy group creation of setting (one of the features of Universalis). So I can see where you are coming from, I think. But I also know that we're a fairly rare bunch. If you can take it, you're best bet to find more people like yourself is on-line gaming, as you suggest.

Mike

[Ayrizale]

Mike,

    Although I believe that I tend towards Sim - Char/Setting, I also believe that I would really like to give Narritivist gaming a try.  I have not had the chance yet to even give it the briefest of tries.  The Premise that I gave was probably very narrow simply because that is an area of gaming that I have never had the chance to explore, and so I'm kind of fumbling around for a really good example.

   What system would I use?  Hmmm...  Depends on what I'm wanting to play.  If I want to go for a Sim - Char/Setting game, then I would currently choose White Wolf's new offering, Exalted.  I really, really like the setting and the system/setting combination, IMO, offers the opportunity for some very interesting characters.

   If I were wanting a narritivist game, I would first want to try either Sorcerer (probably with "& Sword") or Hero Wars.

   What settings do I like?  Epic High Fantasy, usually.  Pretty much anything with Magic, or Mysticism, or just something that is "unexplained."  I liked the Setting for Shadowrun almost as much as I like the setting for Exalted, for example.

   Like Narritivist play, I have yet to actually play in a group constructed setting either, so this is more about me wanting to expand my horizons while everyone else is quite content with their horizons where they are.

   I am considering online gaming, and may go that route at some point.  But I also like the social aspect of playing in the same room as the other players.

   I hope that answers the questions that you had, and if you have any more I'll do my best to answer them.  If I missed the point of the messages/questions or if I'm just missing something in general, please point it out to me, I can be kinda dense sometimes.  :)

Thanks,

Lael