[Vocab] Task versus Conflict

[xenopulse]

John,

I just think that it is not a problem directly with Task Resolution. I think it's a matter of picking the right scale for your resolution relative to the goals.

The thing I am trying to point out is that you don't have this issue with CR, no matter what the scale. You always declare the conflict, and resolve it. Sure, you can have small scale and large scale conflicts, but the fact that you're addressing conflicts at all times is what makes it different from TR.

For example, in D&D3, the "Gather Information" skill folds an entire evening's worth of questioning into a single roll.

*If* there is something to find in the first place. What if there's no information for the purpose you want to use? It doesn't matter what the scale is--the task might still be futile. I.e., the outcome is: You are sure you've gotten every bit of info that's out there with your single roll, but there's just no dirt on this guy.

I am not sure how to stress that difference more. In one case, the GM either decided beforehand what's there to be found, or he makes a spontaneous decision about it. Either way, the roll may be wasted. But if we established a conflict, we determine together right there and then what I get if I win. We *can* do that with a game like D&D, but I think then we're drifting it to use as a CR system. There's a thread somewhere on these forums on someone doing just that.

[greyorm]

For Orx, I wrote that Conflicts are the "Why"...it's the point at which you ask yourself, either as player or character, "Why the hell am I doing this?"

Trying to kill a goblin? Task or conflict?

Take a D&D combat against a goblin...when you roll to hit, you aren't rolling to resolve the situation. You're rolling to see if you hit. But WHY are you trying to hit the goblin? What's your immediate goal in being involved with this goblin? Getting past him? Killing him? Scaring him off? That's your conflict.

Tasks are actions. Conflicts are what gets resolved when actions are performed.

Hiding in the shadows? What are you hiding from? Or rather, why are you hiding? Suppose you successfully hide from the orcs, only to be spotted by the ogre? Have you attained your goal in hiding in the first place?

Getting the picture?

One of the main differences between task and conflict is whether or not the stakes of the situation are under the control of you via what you roll. Cracking a safe is only a conflict if what you're looking for in the safe is actually in the safe, or if you find it outside the safe despite your interaction with the safe, and finding it/not finding it is all resolved under the same roll.

Roll to crack the safe, and don't find the stuff either because it isn't in the safe or you can't get into the safe? Task.

I hope that was helpful.

[Ron Edwards]

Raven, that makes more sense than any single post or thread on this issue to date. I oughta split it out and make it a sticky or something.

Best,
Ron

[M. J. Young]

The thing I am trying to point out is that you don't have this issue with CR, no matter what the scale. You always declare the conflict, and resolve it. Sure, you can have small scale and large scale conflicts, but the fact that you're addressing conflicts at all times is what makes it different from TR.

Xeno, I think you're confusing two issues here. John is right on this point. You're assuming that if it is conflict resolution the player gets to define the scale. John is assuming that whether it's conflict or task resolution the referee still defines the scale. The correct answer is that it doesn't matter who defines the scale--task resolution is based on the difficulty of performing specific skill-type tasks, conflict resolution is based on determining directly who (or what) wins in a conflict without reference to how that is done.

To use the open the safe example, let's put forward two versions once again.

"I want to find dirt on this guy."

"How do you expect to do that?"

"I'm going to break into his office, search his desk, computer, safe, and whatever else is there, looking for dirt."

"O.K., you have to defeat the security system on the office, break into the safe, overcome the security on the computer, probably break the lock on the desk...."

"No, I want to pick that lock; it should be easy to do, and I don't want to leave any trace that I was there."

"Ah, O.K., not leaving a trace is going to be a penalty on your chance of success, and we've got the difficulty of those other tasks, but if you can roll 19 you can do it all."

"I rolled 19, just."

"You succeed in breaking into his office and going through all his things."

Referee checks notes.

"Unfortunately, there's no dirt on this guy; he's clean as a whistle, as far as you can tell."

"I want to find some dirt on this guy."

"O.K., this guy is really clean, there might not be anything to find; and he keeps his secrets well. You'd have to roll a 20 to get anything like that on him."

"I rolled 19. Oh well."

"You broke into his office, opened his safe, searched his files, his desk, his computer--there just doesn't seem to be anything to find."

Task resolution addresses the difficulty of doing specific tasks. Conflict resolution addresses the challenge of defeating an opponent.

The idea that the player can define the scope is incidental, and can apply to either. It's just as easy to design a system in which the player gets to decide whether a string of tasks are decided by one roll or many rolls as it is to design a conflict system that way.

Look at it from this end. We'll agree that "I hit the orc" is a task resolved by a single roll. That task can itself be reduced to a dozen individual steps--parrying to create an opening, watching for a weak spot, positioning the weapon for the strike, swinging or thrusting, penetrating the armor, hitting a vital organ, maneuvering the blade for increased damage, withdrawing the weapon undamaged--but we don't want that level of complexity, so we simplify it to a single roll. We can as easily simplify an entire combat to a single roll. I could calculate the amount of damage the orc can do to the man and the man to the orc over the same period of time, run that out to determine how injured the winner will be when the loser dies, and then throw in a randomizer that will vary that, possibly enough that the underdog would win. One roll then determines the outcome of all the swings, hits, damage rolls. I can extrapolate this further to determining the outcome of a war with a single roll that accounts for the relative strength of both armies--task resolution on the grand scale. I'm working with the question of what people can do.

It doesn't become conflict resolution until it becomes a matter of the character goals instead of their means. It doesn't matter whether my "goal" is "defeat this orc" and then that goal is repeated for a thousand other orcs or whether my goal is "defeat this orcish army" and it's settled in a single roll. More to the point, it doesn't matter whether I decide which of these is going to be the case, or whether the referee decides it. Task resolution is based on whether I have the skill to win by the means I have chosen, conflict resolution is based on whether I have the determination to win by some means to be determined.

More than I wanted to say, but I hope it clears up that aspect.

--M. J. Young

[xenopulse]

M.J.,

You're assuming that if it is conflict resolution the player gets to define the scale.

That had nothing to do with my point, actually. My point refers to tasks that go nowhere, no matter what the scale. Maybe you misinterpreted my post, and maybe I should have been clearer, but I thought I wrote that scope is irrelevant to my point.

Task resolution addresses the difficulty of doing specific tasks. Conflict resolution addresses the challenge of defeating an opponent.

Agreed. My point is, as in your example ("Unfortunately, there's no dirt on this guy"), tasks can be wasted time, from a conflict-addressing perspective (I guess if you enjoy doing tasks, even if they don't have an impact on any conflict, it's not a waste, but part of the simulated story). The task check was never capable of addressing the conflict, just about whether I would figure out or not that there's nothing to find. Neither success nor failure in that roll does anything to resolve, partially resolve, or escalate the conflict.