[Sorcerer] Again with the penalty currency thing...

[JMendes]

Hey, folks, :)

This thread from back on August 24th has been brought to my attention...

two characters declare they're attacking each other.  Both roll, leaving dice on the table.  One wins initiative and the other chooses to suck it up and roll a 1 die defense.  Result: he loses and suffers next roll penalties.

Now, provided his current total penalties don't exceed his Stamina and force him to lose his action, he gets to act.  He's already rolled dice for his intended action, so, as I understand it, they don't count as his "next roll."   He gets his full unmodified dice roll to resolve his action.  

If that's correct, my question comes here: do the penalties just incurred apply as a bonus to his target's defense roll or not?

Hole in one, Alan. Those victories now become bonus dice to the defensive roll against his incoming attack.

However, in this other, earlier thread,

Gurk decides to tough it out <...> he gets hit, and takes a two-die penalty on his next action (one immediate, one lasting).

Now Gurk attacks back. <...> He sucked up the attack so he could continue with his counter; he took 2 dice in penalties; he has Stamina 3. Hiero still gets his five dice to defend, but what happens to Gurk's original roll?

Gurk's roll <...> stands but Heiro gets to defend against it with SEVEN dice.  Five for his Stamina plus two for Gurk's "penalties.

(In both cases, emphasis mine.)

I should note that the above two answers are emphatically not equivalent. So, I am now confused...

Here's a specific example:

Jack and Joe are locked in a fist fight. Joe announces he wants to punch Jack's lights out, whereas Jack announces he would love to do the same to Joe. Dice are rolled.

Jack: 10, 7, 3
Joe: 6, 6, 5

Joe decides to suck it up and rolls an 8 in his one-die defence.

Jack wins by one victory, and since this is fists, Joe takes 2 penalties, one of which is lasting. Also, Jack now has one victory to roll over as dice to other rolls. Now it's time to resolve Joe's counter-punch. How many dice does Jack defend with?

(a) His basic three dice for Stamina. This option has been deemed wrong by both threads above, as well as others.
(b) His basic Stamina plus the carry-over victory, for a total of four. This is what is implied by the reply to Alan above.
(c) His basic Stamina plus Joe's two-dice penalties, for a total of five. This is what is implied by the reply to Calithena above.
(d) His basic Stamina plus the carry-over victory, plus Joe's penalties, for a total of six. This would be combining both replies.

So, (a) is definitely wrong, but only one of (b), (c) or (d) can be right. Which is it?

Cheers,

J.

[Valamir]

Both of the answers you quoted look identical to me.

Ron did say "victories" in his reply to Alan, but I suspect that was just a slip of the tongue since Alan was clearly asking about penalties

In both cases its the penalties that accrue from the damage that get added to the first attacker's defense, not the actual successes rolled.

That's how I read it.

[Trevis Martin]

Like Ralph I suspect the word victories in the first example is a slip of phrase.  You can tell it from the context of Alan's question.  The situation of the two examples questions read the same way.

In the situation you pose above you've complicated it a bit by saying theat Jack gets a bonus die to roll over as well, which is a seperate issue from the two questions above involving where Joe's extra penalties go to since he isn't going to reroll his dice.  Answer: they become bonus dice for his opponent's defense.  Neither of the two examples you quote involve roll over victories, like you have identified for Jack.

The situation you posed I beleive D is correct.

best

Trevis

[Christopher Weeks]

I'd say D can only be correct if there's some strong causal connection between Jack's punching of Joe and his subsequent defense.  More likely, C is right and there's a success that can be rolled over if Jack declares something that is appropriately connected to the punch from the previous round.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

1. Yes, I mis-wrote - those were penalties, not victories.

2. (C) is correct, but if the player happened to have narrated the defensive action in a specifically nifty way related to the nature of the previous attack, then (D) would apply.

Best,
Ron

[JMendes]

Hi, :)

Thank you. All is clear now. :)

I still have some problems with getting into the game, but they're not mechanical, so I'll go into them in the Actual Play forum. :)

Cheers,

J.