The Forge Archives

Previous discussion of Misery Bubblegum (nee Dulcimer Hall) can be found here.

I've got this lovely, elegant little positioning mechanism, which will let people shift their resources around in all these perfectly evocative ways.  The problem is, I'm hung up on the most fundamental of questions "What do players have their characters do in this game?"

And the thing is, I thought I knew it!  The players take on characters who are high school students, pursuing the goals that high school students pursue.  I know what those are, right?  I was in high school, after all.

Turns out... I'm clueless.  I remember what it felt like to be in high school, but I do not now know what it was I wanted to achieve at that time.  And, truth be told, I don't think I knew then what it was I wanted to achieve.  I wanted to become a person who would know what he wanted.

So here's the question:  Can the goal of the characters (not merely the players, but actually the characters) be to control and create their own reward structure?  Can your goal be to decide what your goal is?  And, especially, how much fun is to be had from wanting to want a certain thing, but being unable to actually want it?  Would characters pursue the goals that they actually want, or the ones they feel they should want?

Example:  Tiffany knows that she should want to be popular, but she actually feels good and strong when she decides to study and blow off parties.  Nonetheless, she lets her grades slip (even deliberately failing at tests) and goes to parties with a circle of "friends" that she secretly detests, because that's what everyone (including her) expects her to enjoy.


Two basic questions:  (1)  Am I the only one who would enjoy playing inside such a structure? and (2) Is it possible, mechanically?

Tony,

You're dead on.  I teach high school, and I see students struggling with this fundamental conflict all of the time.  They know what they should do, even what gives them a secret good feeling, one they might never admit to anyone else, but they are overpowered by peer pressure or parent pressure, or whatever.  Teenage life is largely defined by competing and only dimly understood pressures.

As for your questions, I'd play it.  I have a strong interest right now in very active behavior mechanics that don't overshadow player protagonism, which leads to your second question:  Make the thing they think they should be doing (false goal?) very attractive in terms of piled on resources if they choose to follow it, and then structure play so that pressure (with attendant consequence) is applied often (as it actually is in high school; to hyperbolize a bit, every passing-time in the hallway is a round of combat...)  

For example, in a game I'm working on right now, characters are pulled between two opposing behaviors (e.g, Obsession <------> Memory.)  One is negative, in the context of the setting, and the other is positive (the desired goal.)  Choosing the "negative" option will always make the conflict at hand more likely to be won.  However, it will also begin a process of destruction in the char's personal life that becomes increasingly hard (though possible) to reverse.

In your example, this might translate to Tiffany gaining power for the moment, and even over the long run (within a context), but will ultimately damage her relationships with her family, her 'real" friends, her chances for college, etc.  BTW, I like your example a lot, because it nests conflict within conflict, which would help, in a system like I outlined above, to force LOTS of choices, which gives a greater chance of recovering from "bad" choices, yet all of it still based on player choice within the game itself.

I haven't had a chance to play Capes with the rest of the indieMN group, but I've figured out at least that you like player choice...  ;)

Yes to incentivizing self-destruction. "Is the Dark Side stronger?" "Quicker, maybe; easier..."

As for a Big Overall Objective (BOO?), how about

"What kind of person do you grow up to be?"

(I'm sort of thinking of Vesperteen here; and of course you mentioned it yourself t'other night).

How to implement this? As I understand your current thinking, characters start off with few or no Traits and then acquire them or are given them in play (by other people Confronting them, or by having Revelations about themselves, right?).

Maybe give each character X number of "slots" for Traits. A starting character has few or no Traits defined, and lots of empty slots: Know thyself? Ha! You've got no idea who you are, you're in frickin' high school.

But: Each Trait defined -- either by yourself or by others -- takes a slot. Permanently. When all the slots are filled, you can't gain new Traits: That's who you are.

(Escape clause: Maybe someone can take an existing Trait and redefine it, or even replace it with something else. It should just be a hell of a lot harder than putting a Trait into an empty slot -- you're changing a formed personality rather than forming a malleable one).

The downside of this option is that it doesn't let you experience the perpetual, aimless, agonizing churn of high school: No matter how many slots you give people, they will fill up at some point.

The upside of this option is that it doesn't let you experience the perpetual, aimless, agonizing churn of high school: It forces you to focus on the "coming of age" moments. "Endgame" isn't necessarily graduation from high school: It's when you know who you are.

So this solution is not actually a great way of simulating, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (although it might save you from going on and on and on until you run amire in your equivalent of Season 6, "Willow does a drug metaphor"). But it's a pretty good way of simulating Stand By Me or any number of other formative-experience dramas -- or, for that matter, the Amber series (which ends when Corwin figures out his place in the family) or even Red Badge of Courage (which ends when the hero figures out he's not a hero, but he's good enough). [EDIT to add: Holy ****! Aragorn and Boromir. Especially the movie versions (more dynamic and doubt-ridden than the novels). Think about it.]

P.S.: Remember the characters can be woefully ignorant of what they really want even though the players have strong, clear objectives.

P.P.S.: One of the advantage of this approach is that every single Trait added to a character sheet is (a) in game-mechanics terms, taking up a non-renewable resource (slot) and (b) in story terms, defining who that character is forever. So the stakes suddenly become really intense:

"You want to define me as 'Big Loser Nerd'? So that my Epilogue Constraint is 'grows up to work as an accountant/defense correspondent'? Hell with that! I'm fightin' you!"

or

"Gee, if I just had a trait like 'Bully' I could dominate this next conflict -- but darn it, then I'll grow up to be a lousy boss and abusive father."

I don't know... I think that maybe Traits are the reward (in some sense) that you get for pursuing your goals.  But the goals aren't Traits.  The goals are... what you want.

I have a relatively clear picture in my head of what the distinction is, but have the worst time getting it into words:  Let me give an example, as a poor second-best solution.

Quote from: ExamplematicYukino wants to be praised.  She loves to be praised, adored, the center of attention.  Being that she's in a japanese high school, she pursues this goal through studying manically, excelling at sports, and generally performing.  So she doesn't get a Trait "Loves to be praised."  She gets a Trait "Model Student."  But, of course, she doesn't actually enjoy studying.  She's doing it for the praise.

Now Arima comes along, and he is just not buying this.  He understands her, realizes what she's doing, and is not impressed.  He sees the weird, lazy, spiteful, petty side of her... and rather likes it.  What's more, he shows her that she can like it too.  In fact, he bribes her into liking it... because he gives her the opportunities to find joy in that Goal, if she so desires... and it turns out she does.  So now she's got another goal:  "Be honest with Arima," and maybe even "Be honest with myself."  In pursuing that, she'll get traits like "Crazy sudden shift of topic," and "Childlike lack of decorum."

So now, what does she do?  Does she partition her life, trying to maintain the facade of a model student with everyone but Arima?  Or does she come clean, being honest about herself with everyone?  If she does that, will she ever satisfy her "Loves to be praised" Goal again?  Will she, eventually, find a way to be praised for who she really is, rather than the mask?  And when schoolwork is no longer something she's doing out of deceit, will she learn that she actually enjoys being good at it (perhaps adding yet another Goal somewhere along the line)?  Or will she desperately regret all the effor that she put into being a model student, realizing that it was wasted time because it got her no closer to fulfilling the set of Goals that she has now?

Zelazny's Amber, a story near and dear to my heart, is actually a great pointer for this:  Corwin totally changes his goals throughout the course of the books.  He doesn't want the throne, doesn't want to defeat his brothers, instead he wants to support his family and to be a person they (but more importantly, he) can be proud of.  But his methods (in game-terms his Traits) don't budge an inch.  His final battle (throwing a cloak over a man's head and stabbing him while he's blinded) is virtually identical to his first battle (punching an unsuspecting orderly in the testicles, then clubbing him unconscious while he's gasping).  But the context is completely different, because he's a different person (in what he wants, and knowing what he wants).

So, I really like the idea of limited Slots for Traits.  Because I think, in all honesty, that some of the hardest battles in the game would be against yourself, working those traits down to make room for something else that you now need more.  Corwin, for instance, has to work "Bloody-minded vengeance" down from some obscene level to zero through the course of the books, because it no longer has any place in his new Goals.  Yukino has to work down her "Lie about my feelings" trait to make room, because "Lie" has no benefit to the "Be honest" Goal.

Yay for limited slots.

Quote from: TonyLBI think that maybe Traits are the reward (in some sense) that you get for pursuing your goals.  But the goals aren't Traits.  The goals are... what you want.

So do "goals" need to have a mechanical existence at all? Or can they have a mechanical existence only as "victory conditions" to be met at the end of play, rather like the "Epiloque Constraints" in My Life With Master?

I think they definitely need to have a mechanical existence.  In fact, I think that pursuing a goal should create some sort of feedback loop regarding pursuing it further.  Possibly two feedback loops:  One where you become more capable of pursuing that goal, and a second where the more you pursue the goal, the less satisfaction there is to be gained from it.

I'm not so sure on that second one, though.  My leaning is more toward saying that other players get to strongly influence how much satisfaction you can derive from pursuing your own goals.  After all, a hopeless nerd-geek can feel satisfied with model-painting and Star Trek reruns for a long time... until someone else breaks through his shell and gives him a chance to enjoy something else.  Curse those other people, anyway!

So I think that the negative feedback cycle is simply that if you've immensely well equipped to do something (Corwin and Vengeance, for instance) then other players cease to find it interesting to bribe you into pursuing that goal, and start to find it more interesting to bribe you toward other things.  You can still seek bloody-minded vengeance, and control your own fate by doing that, but the victories are going to be increasingly hollow.

Quote(as it actually is in high school; to hyperbolize a bit, every passing-time in the hallway is a round of combat...)

I've never been a big fan of Teen Angst material (probably why shows like Buffy and the like never did much for me.

But this throw away comment by Kesher really got me to stop and think.

The bell rings, you leave the classroom to head to your next class or back to your locker...and THATS when the REAL schooling begins.  I mean for me, 90% of every piece of actual book learning you're going to need for day to day life you learned by junior high.  Reading, Writing, Arithmatic, maybe a little algebrae, some basic reading comprehension and some stuff about a bunch of dead presidents.  When I think back on my actual high school CLASSES...nothing.  With the exception of a few specialized electives, there's NOTHING I learned in high school that I actually use day to day.

EXCEPT all the stuff that went on OUTSIDE of the classroom.  All of the learning how to stand on your own and how to interact with a variety of other people.  High School to me was just a four year long social interaction practice session with the classes being just the MacGuffin to get everyone together.

And every day, between every class...WAS a round of combat...for everyone.  For the geeks trying to get to their next class unnoticed.  For the jocks trying to show off in front of the girls.  Each of the cliques had it own set of facades and fears that the facade might be penetrated.  And every stroll down the hall was either a defense of your own facade or an attack on someone elses...primarily to draw the attention of the mob to someone else, like a wounded shark in a feeding frenzy.

The old adage when being chased by a bear not having to be able to run faster than the bear just your friend was so true in high school.  Friends would literally throw their friends to the mob if it helped them escape unnoticed for a brief time.

Yeah, every passing in the hall as a round of combat...that I could identify with.

Random thought:

If you did Misery Bubblegum: The Lord of the Rings, is the Ring of Power best conceived of as a character whose player just sits there offering other players dice bribes to develop nasty traits on their characters? (Smeagol/Gollum: "Murderer"). And, for that matter, somehow encouraging people to pursue Goals to the point of self-destruction, such that the Ringwraiths are examples of Tony's "the negative feedback cycle" of becoming better and better at pursuing a given goal (power) at the price that "the victories are going to be increasingly hollow"?

Yes, I think that's just about what I'm aiming for.  The idea that (like the Nazgul) a character can become very, very powerful, but simultaneously be completely unable to achieve something that brings them happiness, resonates with me.

I'm not sure whether other players would be able to bribe you to take traits ("Murderer"), goals ("My Precioussss....") or both.  Probably both.

I can see real fun in offering people new goals:  "Yep, you've pretty much figured out how to avoid all the jocks and not having people talk to you.  You've got this 'Avoid pain' goal pretty well addressed.  Now I'd like to bribe you to also take on the 'Get Becky to notice me' goal.  Doesn't suit your existing Traits?  Well, that's a pity, isn't it?"

And I can see real fun in offering people new traits:  "So, you really, really want the ring, huh?  Well I'm a generous, civic-minded sort.  I'll help you out!  Here's a bribe on the trait 'Murderer', which I think should be very helpful.  Ohhh... you wanted to talk?  Well, I don't feel like bribing you on a 'Sweet talker' trait, but hey, maybe you can manage to get the ring without my help.  Not likely, but don't let me stop you from trying."

I just ran across this in the library while looking for something else, and I thought it was relevant to this discussion, at least broadly:

Quote from: In her book [i]Branded:  The Buying and Selling of Teenagers[/i], Alicia QuartI was thirteen when I first understood what a teen film was.  Knowledge arrived in the form of The Breakfast Club....The nerd...recognizes that his day of inclusion and quasi-Method acting will end as soon as detention does.  Near tears...the nerd announces that they will all "become their parents":  "It's unavoidable....When you grow up, your heart dies," answers the Goth (Ally Sheedy), glittery-eyed and black-clad, excited by her own bleakness.

At thirteen, I suspected that my heart would die also, sooner rather than later.  It's embarassing to admit now, but the film spoke to me.  Sure it's overacted and broad...But it also has the ring of a diary entry, of what life is really like when our parents and teachers leave the room.  Raging against high school cliques and hierarchies, it puts forth an appealingly sappy proposition:  that all strata of kids should unite against two common enemies, their parents and a future of soulless-ness.

This suggests that the overall dynamic of high school is not only becoming who you'll be as an adult, but also struggling to preserve some cinder of what it means to be a child:  a shred of innocence, if you like--not the marketer's slick view of "being a kid," but the child-like ability to accept others on their own terms (remember, as a kid you'd play with anybody).

This is probably an overly romanticized notion of childhood, but it speaks to the notion of what's at stake in a game about high school.

Bill

Yeah, actually, I think it is an overly romantic notion... because it strikes me as very much an outsider's viewpoint.  It's easy to look back (as an adult) and say that what they're trying to do is not to entirely become adults.  But I certainly don't recall many people who didn't want to grow up in high school.

The fear wasn't that they'd become adults, it's that they'd become the kind of adults that they (as teenagers) detested.  I don't think there's all that interesting a game to be told about trying to resist change ("Turtle, the RPG"), but I think there's tremendous potential to the idea that you have to seek out the right changes, or else the wrong changes will sneak up on you by accident... especially when you have no idea what the right or wrong changes are.

Quote from: TonyLBTurns out... I'm clueless.  I remember what it felt like to be in high school, but I do not now know what it was I wanted to achieve at that time.  And, truth be told, I don't think I knew then what it was I wanted to achieve.  I wanted to become a person who would know what he wanted.

I think that's your primary goal right there - being a teenager is largely about working out who you are and what you want to be and seeking approval for those choices. The primary conflict occurs when people don't accept you for who you are: do you conform to their expectations, or rebel and suffer the consequences?

So, how about Bribes in the form of validation by others? Friends could encourage you to be One Of Us, or challenge you to a dare. Romantic (or lustful) relationships with other charaters provides another source of validation. As does trying to please your parents or teachers.

Here's an idea: each player has a limited pool of Trait dice, but these are all given to the other players at the start of the game. Anyone who has some of your dice can offer them to you as a Bribe to behave the way they want you to:

For example, someone offer's Tiffany's layer a 2 dice Party Animal Trait as a Bribe; if Tiffany accepts them, she gets to use the 2 dice in other conflicts, but has lost those two dice to other options.

Instead of accepting the Bribe, you can have your character reject the peer pressure. This allows you to choose your own Trait definition for those dice. However, the player who offered you the Bribe can now roll those dice against you, where the original offered Trait would have applied.

Example: Tiffany's player doesn't want to waste those two dice on Party Animal, she wants to study hard to become a lawyer. The player rejects the Bribe, and gains a 2 dice Studious (not a Party Animal) Trait. However, the other students are going to think she's a nerd; the player who offered her the original Bribe can roll those dice against her in any conflict where being a Party Animal would have been useful.

Another example: Another player takes on the role of Tiffany's dad, who's a sexist pig. He offers a 3 dice Perfect Housewife Bribe. Tiffany's player flat rejects this, turning it into a 3 dice Sassy (not a Housewife) Trait. But she's going to be fighting with her dad a lot, and losing a lot of those fights too.

Quote from: TonyLBYeah, actually, I think it is an overly romantic notion... because it strikes me as very much an outsider's viewpoint. It's easy to look back (as an adult) and say that what they're trying to do is not to entirely become adults. But I certainly don't recall many people who didn't want to grow up in high school.

Yeah, that's fair.   I think you've already got covered the main point that I was trying (unsuccessfully) to make:  part of what drives "growing up" is the fear of being forced to become someone you don't want to become.

Bill

Doug:  That's really cool.  It changes offering a Trait from just a Bribe to a Bribe plus a Threat!  It's "Accept my input to your character and profit... or don't, and I'll make you miserable about this issue forever."  Extortion and bribery all rolled into one.

And oh my God is it high school in many ways.  When Bob asks Mary if she loves him, the way that he loves her, and she says "No," he gets to roll dice in any situation where Mary loving him would have helped.  Which is the equivalent of him gaining a "Mary is a frigid bitch" Trait (or "lesbian" or "prissy little momma's girl", or whatever his choice of denial is).

In fact, wouldn't it be cleaner for him to just gain such a relationship Trait?  Then it could sit there, taking up space in his Traits (and thereby distracting him from fulfilling his own potential) the way it should... and he could build it up into a massive resentment, perhaps generalizing it to all women, or he could burn it down and get over it.  In short, it would be manipulable in all the same ways as other Traits.